by Walrus » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:21 pm
> You still don't seem to get it. No matter how omnipotent and omniscience the source of the communication is, it is being received by imperfect people. Anything, even perfection, can be distorted by humans. Anything. Humanity's imperfection is where the system breaks down.
I do get it, I just find the argument nonsensical. Just because someone is imperfect doesn't mean that they can't clearly understand communication. You failed to address the point I was making: If ANYONE understands, anyone with the capacity to understand can be convinced. People with the capacity to understand aren't convinced. Therefore, if god is a perfect being who communicates perfectly, he MUST be choosing NOT to clearly communicate to those who have the capacity to understand.
> God's omniscience doesn't migrate to us. We have limited knowledge. God's omnipotence doesn't migrate to us. We have limited power. I understand his "omni's" perfectly well. We are imperfect, and that's where it breaks down, not on God's end.
I don't know why you're saying this since it's entirely irrelevant to the point I was making. There is nothing god can't not do (include communicate clearly to imperfect being) if he's omni and perfect. Your restricted deity isn't something I'd call god.
> No he doesn't.
Case in point.
> This seems where you are understanding God's omnipotence. It doesn’t mean there are no limits to what God can do (Mk. 6.5). It means God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power. It is no contradiction that God can realize whatever is possible, and that no number of actualized possibilities exhausts his power. God can realize whatever is possible. The omnipotence of God is all-sufficient power. He is able to overcome apparently insurmountable problems. He has complete power over nature, though often he lets nature take its course, because that’s what He created it to do. He has power over the course of history. He has the power to change human personality, but only as individuals allow. He has the power to conquer death and sin, and to save a human soul for eternity. He has power over the spiritual realm.
> This step-back from the true meaning of the term omnipotence as it's classically and formally understood is something I'm aware of. What I view it as is a retreat from an illogical concept (all-powerful) because 'omnipotence' like 'perfection' is probably just a nonsensical construct, so much so that theists have had to modify and change the usage of the term so much that it doesn't mean the same thing anymore. To me, this isn't an explanation of a concept, this is a failure of theism and just more evidence that the classical and modern versions of god aren't only both different, but absurd.
> What all of this means is that God’s will is never frustrated. What he chooses to do, he accomplishes, for he has the ability to do it.
So not omnipotence, as I said, but 'all powerful within this series of constructed rules to make the concept sound more logical'. Got it.
There are, however, certain qualifications of this all-powerful character of God. He cannot arbitrarily do anything whatsoever that we may conceive of.
> He can’t do what is logically absurd or contradictory (like make a square circle or a married bachelor) He can’t act contrary to his nature. Self-contradiction is not possible. He cannot fail to do what he has promised He cannot interfere with the freedom of man. Otherwise we’re not free. He cannot change the past
If god is the author of all things he must be the author of logic and therefore would be transcendent to logic, or else you're not arguing for a perfect or transcendent god, but a far more limited one. If god is a product or bound by logic, even if it is a very powerful being, I'd argue it couldn't possibly have created the entirety of the universe nor the laws that govern it - therefore I wouldn't call it god.
Logically speaking, I'm again arriving at the far more likely conclusion that the being you're describing simply cannot exist.
> As for God's omniscience, God's omniscience doesn't mean that we are robots without choice. His knowledge doesn't imply causality. Knowledge is not causative. No matter how much I know, or anyone knows, it doesn't CAUSE anything unless power or force is applied. Because I know you love chocolate and will pick the chocolate dessert over the apple crisp doesn't mean I made you do it. I just may know you so well that I know what you will choose. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that our lives are predetermined and that we are not free agents. There is also nothing in the Bible to suggest that God's makes us do what we do. We are free agents, and the choices we get to make regarding spiritual truths are real choices.
I already addressed free will so I'll just state that you're just stating a position over again without delving into what I actually said about it. I will point out that your statement that 'nothing in the bible suggest that our lives are predetermined' isn't agreed upon - probably because the bible isn't very clear (and most definitely imperfect in its construction). If you're going to argue otherwise you have to entirely ignore the theology of predetermination.
> Jeremiah 18.1-12 is instructive in this way, even pertaining to prophecies, let alone issues like salvation. Our freedom and free will are so vibrant that despite the Lord's purposes, God adjusts his plan and actions based on our responses.
Logically absurd. If god knows all and has infinite power of creation he HAD to have created things knowing their entire layout and HAD to have chosen this universe in which everything he knew would happen would actually happen, including every bad / nasty thing /etc. If you're going to deny this I'll just throw out there that, again, I feel like we're not describing a being I'd call god, because 'perfect' requires 'unchanging'. Suggesting god would 'adjust' based on us means he would necessarily have to be in a state of flux.
If your version of 'perfect' allows for change, I personally believe you don't know the meaning of the word your using because if something is perfect it can't be 'more' or 'less' or 'different' perfect. It can only be in a static state of perfection.
> This may be true, but his communication cannot be guaranteed to be received perfectly since the recipients of the communication are imperfect.
Addressed above.
> This is how humanity started out, but we are the ones who changed it. Now it has to be different. We messed it up, we made such direct transmission impossible without further intervention from God and a learning curve.
Actually, humanity started out as a link in a chain of a series of biological changes with about 100+ members of the species which were able to interbreed. It's not biologically or functionally possible for a species to develop from less than a few dozen humans, throwing out a large amount of the adam and eve story. That said, it's irrelevant since scholars of near-eastern literature largely agree that genesis is poetic and not meant to be literal.
> It isn't, it's just the only one you keep choosing.
This is stated, not argued.
>God is perfect and is capable of perfection, and he is God by classical definitions.
Same as above. If you want to justify the position you can do so by addressing the logical inconsistencies (perfect but changing, all-powerful but constrained), but if you can't I'm not sure how I can believe what your saying, and I'm also not sure how you can believe it since those above categories are logically self-refuting based on how you're explaining and defining them.
I'll state it again: Your version of perfect seems to be 'perfectly limited' and your version of omnipotent seems to be 'powerfully limited'. These ideas seem to be flat-out absurd.
> You still don't seem to get it. No matter how omnipotent and omniscience the source of the communication is, it is being received by imperfect people. Anything, even perfection, can be distorted by humans. Anything. Humanity's imperfection is where the system breaks down.
I do get it, I just find the argument nonsensical. Just because someone is imperfect doesn't mean that they can't clearly understand communication. You failed to address the point I was making: If ANYONE understands, anyone with the capacity to understand can be convinced. People with the capacity to understand aren't convinced. Therefore, if god is a perfect being who communicates perfectly, he MUST be choosing NOT to clearly communicate to those who have the capacity to understand.
> God's omniscience doesn't migrate to us. We have limited knowledge. God's omnipotence doesn't migrate to us. We have limited power. I understand his "omni's" perfectly well. We are imperfect, and that's where it breaks down, not on God's end.
I don't know why you're saying this since it's entirely irrelevant to the point I was making. There is nothing god can't not do (include communicate clearly to imperfect being) if he's omni and perfect. Your restricted deity isn't something I'd call god.
> No he doesn't.
Case in point.
> This seems where you are understanding God's omnipotence. It doesn’t mean there are no limits to what God can do (Mk. 6.5). It means God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power. It is no contradiction that God can realize whatever is possible, and that no number of actualized possibilities exhausts his power. God can realize whatever is possible. The omnipotence of God is all-sufficient power. He is able to overcome apparently insurmountable problems. He has complete power over nature, though often he lets nature take its course, because that’s what He created it to do. He has power over the course of history. He has the power to change human personality, but only as individuals allow. He has the power to conquer death and sin, and to save a human soul for eternity. He has power over the spiritual realm.
> This step-back from the true meaning of the term omnipotence as it's classically and formally understood is something I'm aware of. What I view it as is a retreat from an illogical concept (all-powerful) because 'omnipotence' like 'perfection' is probably just a nonsensical construct, so much so that theists have had to modify and change the usage of the term so much that it doesn't mean the same thing anymore. To me, this isn't an explanation of a concept, this is a failure of theism and just more evidence that the classical and modern versions of god aren't only both different, but absurd.
> What all of this means is that God’s will is never frustrated. What he chooses to do, he accomplishes, for he has the ability to do it.
So not omnipotence, as I said, but 'all powerful within this series of constructed rules to make the concept sound more logical'. Got it.
There are, however, certain qualifications of this all-powerful character of God. He cannot arbitrarily do anything whatsoever that we may conceive of.
> He can’t do what is logically absurd or contradictory (like make a square circle or a married bachelor) He can’t act contrary to his nature. Self-contradiction is not possible. He cannot fail to do what he has promised He cannot interfere with the freedom of man. Otherwise we’re not free. He cannot change the past
If god is the author of all things he must be the author of logic and therefore would be transcendent to logic, or else you're not arguing for a perfect or transcendent god, but a far more limited one. If god is a product or bound by logic, even if it is a very powerful being, I'd argue it couldn't possibly have created the entirety of the universe nor the laws that govern it - therefore I wouldn't call it god.
Logically speaking, I'm again arriving at the far more likely conclusion that the being you're describing simply cannot exist.
> As for God's omniscience, God's omniscience doesn't mean that we are robots without choice. His knowledge doesn't imply causality. Knowledge is not causative. No matter how much I know, or anyone knows, it doesn't CAUSE anything unless power or force is applied. Because I know you love chocolate and will pick the chocolate dessert over the apple crisp doesn't mean I made you do it. I just may know you so well that I know what you will choose. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that our lives are predetermined and that we are not free agents. There is also nothing in the Bible to suggest that God's makes us do what we do. We are free agents, and the choices we get to make regarding spiritual truths are real choices.
I already addressed free will so I'll just state that you're just stating a position over again without delving into what I actually said about it. I will point out that your statement that 'nothing in the bible suggest that our lives are predetermined' isn't agreed upon - probably because the bible isn't very clear (and most definitely imperfect in its construction). If you're going to argue otherwise you have to entirely ignore the theology of predetermination.
> Jeremiah 18.1-12 is instructive in this way, even pertaining to prophecies, let alone issues like salvation. Our freedom and free will are so vibrant that despite the Lord's purposes, God adjusts his plan and actions based on our responses.
Logically absurd. If god knows all and has infinite power of creation he HAD to have created things knowing their entire layout and HAD to have chosen this universe in which everything he knew would happen would actually happen, including every bad / nasty thing /etc. If you're going to deny this I'll just throw out there that, again, I feel like we're not describing a being I'd call god, because 'perfect' requires 'unchanging'. Suggesting god would 'adjust' based on us means he would necessarily have to be in a state of flux.
If your version of 'perfect' allows for change, I personally believe you don't know the meaning of the word your using because if something is perfect it can't be 'more' or 'less' or 'different' perfect. It can only be in a static state of perfection.
> This may be true, but his communication cannot be guaranteed to be received perfectly since the recipients of the communication are imperfect.
Addressed above.
> This is how humanity started out, but we are the ones who changed it. Now it has to be different. We messed it up, we made such direct transmission impossible without further intervention from God and a learning curve.
Actually, humanity started out as a link in a chain of a series of biological changes with about 100+ members of the species which were able to interbreed. It's not biologically or functionally possible for a species to develop from less than a few dozen humans, throwing out a large amount of the adam and eve story. That said, it's irrelevant since scholars of near-eastern literature largely agree that genesis is poetic and not meant to be literal.
> It isn't, it's just the only one you keep choosing.
This is stated, not argued.
>God is perfect and is capable of perfection, and he is God by classical definitions.
Same as above. If you want to justify the position you can do so by addressing the logical inconsistencies (perfect but changing, all-powerful but constrained), but if you can't I'm not sure how I can believe what your saying, and I'm also not sure how you can believe it since those above categories are logically self-refuting based on how you're explaining and defining them.
I'll state it again: Your version of perfect seems to be 'perfectly limited' and your version of omnipotent seems to be 'powerfully limited'. These ideas seem to be flat-out absurd.