by jimwalton » Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:39 am
I agree that "good" and "evil" are terms that exist on the same plane. I never contended that "evil" was a loaded word and "good" wasn't. I don't consider a lie to be evil either. Lies are generally wrong to tell, though in some very limited instances (as perhaps the one you mentioned, as well as the protection of Jews in people's homes during WWII, possibly an interrogator using a lie to garner a confession that will protect many lives, etc.). Even being angry is not necessarily evil. The Bible (Ephesians 4.26) tells us that sometimes it's OK to be angry, as long as we don't cross into sin with it (which is easy to do).
You say that "people act in a manner that they see themselves as good people." I sort of agree. I see people acting in a manner that they use to protect themselves and/or to advance themselves. They may cheat on a test (not considering themselves a good person when they do it), but excusing it on the basis of "everybody does it" or "I need to get a good grade." Although they would also probably say they are good people (though not necessarily that their cheating was a good thing). They are sometimes trying to do the right thing, but at other times just trying to make a good life for themselves and doing what they need to do to accomplish that end, even if it involves some shady behavior.
> Can someone who has accepted God, lived by his commandments for years NOT act evil?
Absolutely, but that doesn't mean they're immune. Evil not only lurks around every corner and keeps trying to drag us into it, it also haunts us from the inside (in my opinion). As I said, given the right circumstances (oh, watch any dystopic movie about the apocalypse), and we all seem to understand that people will turn into animals given the right panic mode at work.
> Could a godly person use the word of God to do horrible things?
Well, that's a trick question. If they're REALLY godly they won't. But a lot of people who pretend to be godly but are hypocrites do indeed use the word of God to do horrible things. Unfortunately, the Word of God has been abused through the ages as pretend godly people have used it to justify their own evil ends.
> If someone kills someone else, not out of rage, but out of calculation, is that less evil?
No, killing out of calculation is generally more evil, but killing out of rage is evil too. Another trick question. But killing in self-defense is not evil (Ex. 22.2-3).
> if I understand correctly, you do believe everyone is "not good"
People learn to be good, and we are socialized to be good, but we all have things in us that aren't good, so I wouldn't agree that "good" is the default. I know B.F. Skinner taught that we were born with a blank slate, and both good and evil are learned, but I don't agree with him. People can be startlingly good, and also staggeringly cruel. I'm of the opinion (based on observations) that there's enough cheating, lying, killing, anger, pride, and greed in the world that I can't subscribe to the tenet that good is the default.
> And if so, how does that paint your interactions with strangers? Say an atheist stranger walks up to you in a parking lot (say they are wearing a pro-atheist shirt), before they say a word, do you suspect them of being bad?
Not at all. I suspect them of having a world-view completely different from my own, having come to opposite conclusions based on the same evidence. One's theology doesn't necessarily dictate one's behavior (though it should). Too many Christians are hypocritical and live lives that Christ would never approve of, and many atheists live lives based on Christian principles inconsistent with their naturalistic humanism. So I don't assume they're bad. Everybody has good and bad in them. Therefore we're not inherently good, but we are all born inherently separated from God.
> Jesus overturning the tables.
No, anger isn't always bad. If ISIS is chopping off the heads of journalists, I consider that to be evil, and it makes me angry. And I think my anger is justified. If a friend of mine tells me they were sexually abused as a child by their father, that makes me really angry. When Jesus overturned their tables, he was offended at the mockery they were making of God. His action was one of prophetic symbolism, working against what had become an accepted form of blasphemy. Since Jesus considered that there is no such thing as "accepted blasphemy," he got angry, and I think his anger was justified, not evil.
I agree that "good" and "evil" are terms that exist on the same plane. I never contended that "evil" was a loaded word and "good" wasn't. I don't consider a lie to be evil either. Lies are generally wrong to tell, though in some very limited instances (as perhaps the one you mentioned, as well as the protection of Jews in people's homes during WWII, possibly an interrogator using a lie to garner a confession that will protect many lives, etc.). Even being angry is not necessarily evil. The Bible (Ephesians 4.26) tells us that sometimes it's OK to be angry, as long as we don't cross into sin with it (which is easy to do).
You say that "people act in a manner that they see themselves as good people." I sort of agree. I see people acting in a manner that they use to protect themselves and/or to advance themselves. They may cheat on a test (not considering themselves a good person when they do it), but excusing it on the basis of "everybody does it" or "I need to get a good grade." Although they would also probably say they are good people (though not necessarily that their cheating was a good thing). They are sometimes trying to do the right thing, but at other times just trying to make a good life for themselves and doing what they need to do to accomplish that end, even if it involves some shady behavior.
> Can someone who has accepted God, lived by his commandments for years NOT act evil?
Absolutely, but that doesn't mean they're immune. Evil not only lurks around every corner and keeps trying to drag us into it, it also haunts us from the inside (in my opinion). As I said, given the right circumstances (oh, watch any dystopic movie about the apocalypse), and we all seem to understand that people will turn into animals given the right panic mode at work.
> Could a godly person use the word of God to do horrible things?
Well, that's a trick question. If they're REALLY godly they won't. But a lot of people who pretend to be godly but are hypocrites do indeed use the word of God to do horrible things. Unfortunately, the Word of God has been abused through the ages as pretend godly people have used it to justify their own evil ends.
> If someone kills someone else, not out of rage, but out of calculation, is that less evil?
No, killing out of calculation is generally more evil, but killing out of rage is evil too. Another trick question. But killing in self-defense is not evil (Ex. 22.2-3).
> if I understand correctly, you do believe everyone is "not good"
People learn to be good, and we are socialized to be good, but we all have things in us that aren't good, so I wouldn't agree that "good" is the default. I know B.F. Skinner taught that we were born with a blank slate, and both good and evil are learned, but I don't agree with him. People can be startlingly good, and also staggeringly cruel. I'm of the opinion (based on observations) that there's enough cheating, lying, killing, anger, pride, and greed in the world that I can't subscribe to the tenet that good is the default.
> And if so, how does that paint your interactions with strangers? Say an atheist stranger walks up to you in a parking lot (say they are wearing a pro-atheist shirt), before they say a word, do you suspect them of being bad?
Not at all. I suspect them of having a world-view completely different from my own, having come to opposite conclusions based on the same evidence. One's theology doesn't necessarily dictate one's behavior (though it should). Too many Christians are hypocritical and live lives that Christ would never approve of, and many atheists live lives based on Christian principles inconsistent with their naturalistic humanism. So I don't assume they're bad. Everybody has good and bad in them. Therefore we're not inherently good, but we are all born inherently separated from God.
> Jesus overturning the tables.
No, anger isn't always bad. If ISIS is chopping off the heads of journalists, I consider that to be evil, and it makes me angry. And I think my anger is justified. If a friend of mine tells me they were sexually abused as a child by their father, that makes me really angry. When Jesus overturned their tables, he was offended at the mockery they were making of God. His action was one of prophetic symbolism, working against what had become an accepted form of blasphemy. Since Jesus considered that there is no such thing as "accepted blasphemy," he got angry, and I think his anger was justified, not evil.