Board index ‹ Free Will

[Could Be Me]

Does God know everything about me, including my inner thoughts and secrets? Does he know what decisions I make, and why I make them? Does he know what I'll do in the future? I assume the answers to all those questions are "yes". Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Is it possible for me to make a decision that God did not anticipate? Can I fool him or surprise him?
I'm going to assume the answers are "no". Again, correct me.

I currently do not believe that any gods or supernatural entities exist. If I'm wrong, then God knows this. He also knows exactly WHY I don't believe. It's not through spite or malice, but simply through ignorance or misunderstanding or plain stupidity.

And if I'm wrong, God already knows what my life has in store for me, and whether or not I'll (sometime in the future) come to believe in him or not. I'm already condemned or saved, I just don't know it yet.
Where does my own free will enter in to it at all? Is it possible for me to choose to believe or not, if the choice is already known?

[jimwalton]

You're right on your first two questions, which you properly assumed were correct: God knows everything about you, what decisions you make and why you make them, and it's not possible for you to make a decision that God didn't know about.

My first question comes in your self-assessment: God knows exactly WHY I don't believe. It's not through spite or malice, but simply through ignorance or misunderstanding.

But you've been, no doubt, present with both rational and quite reasonable evidences for the existence of God, logical arguments that show that theism is actually more logical than atheism. You see the world around you, and you know that, given what we see, theism is a more reasonable conclusion than the chance continuum of naturalism. Now, I don't know you, but I'm not sure that ignorance, misunderstanding, or stupidity are the reason, but more the calculated decision to accept certain evidences and reject others, to deny the credibility of the Bible in favor of other arguments, and to suppress some truths that you previously held and exchange them for other explanations. In that case, it seems that possibly your claim to ignorance is a bit disingenuous, and it's more honestly a case of deliberate choice.

But let's set that aside for now for the sake of your real question. You claim, "And if I'm wrong, God already knows what my life has in store for me, and whether or not I'll (sometime in the future) come to believe in him or not. I'm already condemned or saved, I just don't know it yet." If you've read the Bible, you'll know that you're already condemned. Each of us is born in a state of separation from God. As such, eternal life is in our future. But you know about the choice you have fairly been given: There is a God, he's real, he loves you, he doesn't want you to continue in your separation, but to reunite with him in a love relationship. It's your choice. But not to choose is to choose. You may have a choice to go to Disneyworld, but not to choose is to choose to keep sitting at home. If you don't choose for God, you will continue in your separation (by your own choice) and be held accountable for it.

Is it possible that someday you will turn to God? Sure. It's your choice, even today. But it's your free will to enter into or refrain from. God loves the world so much that he gave his only son, and whoever chooses to freely believe in him can have eternal life. Is your choice already known? Sure, but that doesn't negate the reality of it. Just because God can see the whole movie board on the wall at the same time doesn't mean the characters aren't going to play through the script as they choose to.

[Could Be Me]

If my life is already scripted, isn't that like saying that characters in a novel (who believe that they have free will), are able to do something that the author of that novel didn't anticipate?

[jimwalton]

It's the word choice that'll I'm not in agreement with. Your life isn't already scripted. There's a difference between what is foreknown and what is determined. For instance (silly example), my friend loves chocolate. She eats chocolate at every opportunity. Given a choice of desserts or ice cream, it will always be something chocolate. Now, let's say friend and I go into an ice cream parlor. Even in my limited brain, I can tell you what's she's going to choose. I'm not scripting it for her, but I know her very well. She'll pick something with chocolate in it. She has perfect free will, but I know what she's going to choose. I haven't forced anything on her, but I was right about her.

Now let's up the ante to a God who is omniscient, who can see the future as easily as I am looking at this computer screen. He's not scripting our lives, but he can see the choices people will make, so he knows all about it, but he hasn't forced any of it.

And in your last sentence, "anticipate" is a word of issue. His knowledge of all time as if it were the present means he can see it, and in that sense you can't choose to do something that he didn't "anticipate," but he didn't script it for you, so in that sense everything you do was not "anticipated". You are free, but known. "Anticipate" is an inefficient word for this context.

[Could Be Me]

I'm sorry, I'm still not following. I understand the words you've written, but it feels like you're saying "polar bears are black and white at the same time." It just doesn't make sense to me yet.
Y
our analogy of your friend choosing chocolate (an analogy made elsewhere in this thread) is ill-fitting, and the language is a little loose. You (being human) can't possibly have 100% certainty of what your friend will choose. She could still surprise you by choosing vanilla. If you did somehow have 100% certainty of what she'd choose, then I claim that she does NOT have a "free choice", and we're back to square one.

I'm going to go out to eat lunch at some point today. I don't know where I'm going to go or what I'm going to eat. But God, with his knowledge of all time as if it were the present, already knows what I'm going to choose (right?). How is my analogy of being a character in a novel inaccurate? How can I possible make a "free choice" from God's perspective?

God knows my future. God knows what choice I'll make at every step of the way along my life. Isn't that the same thing as saying that I'm walking a very narrow line, from start to finish, with every event already laid out in front of me?
Where am I wrong?

Thank you for your time and thoughts! I appreciate it.

[jimwalton]

Your thinking is clear, and I think I can help. You're thinking, "If God knows what shirt I'm going to wear today, then I really don't have free will to pick any shirt I want. That one shirt is the one that is in the cards for me today." You're thinking we have a contradiction here: If God knows, I'm not really free; if I'm really free, God can't ultimately know what I'm going to choose.

Logically, what you're thinking is that (1) God knows "D" (what you're going to DO), and therefore (2) "D" is compelled. The argument makes an assumption of the inverse: that it's impossible for God to know "D" and for "D" to be false. Logically, something is still missing. Let's try to put your line of thought together:

1. God knows what you're going to do.
2. Conversely, it's not possible for God to know what you're going to do and then you not do it.
3. Since, then, God knows what you're going to do, then it is true that you are going to do it...
4. Therefore, you were compelled.

The problem with statements 2 & 3, and particularly 3, is that they are not necessarily true unless there is a certain underlying assumption that has not been proved: that your choice of behavior is contingent on God's knowledge. Just because we prove one doesn't mean we have proved the other. And, just because 2 is true doesn't require that 3 is then necessarily true. In the words of the logician, "If some future action/choice is known prior to its occurrence, that event does not thereby become 'necessary', 'compelled', 'forced', or what have you. Inasmuch as its description was, is, and will remain forever contingent, both it and its negation remain possible. Of course only one of the two was, is, and will remain true; while the other was, is, and will remain false. But truth and falsity, per se, do not determine a proposition's modality. Whether true or false, each of these propositions was, is, and will remain possible. Knowing—whether by God or a human being—some future event no more forces that event to occur than our learning that dinosaurs lived in (what is now) South Dakota forced those reptiles to take up residence there." (See website http://www.iep.utm.edu/foreknow/)

[LoveAndTruth]

I started a somewhat similar topic last year (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10992).

In relation to this topic, I want to add the idea of God's Providence. His total control and sovereignty over everything. The fact that God's Deterministic Will must be carried. This may take the discussion in a slightly different direction.

You, Jim, said "Just because God can see the whole movie board on the wall at the same time doesn't mean the characters aren't going to play through the script as they choose to." However, Providence mandates that God is not only seeing the movie, but also that He has written movie. And while, characters have free will, I believe that the choices made by free will had to be 'written' into the script.

I'll pose this question to you (a similar one was asked in the link above - that one focused more on the Omniscience) :

How do you make sense of the idea that God will allow human to be born into this world, in light of the fact that God knows that this person will not believe in Him (for the entirety of the persons life)? Furthermore, this is the life path that God has written for this person - i.e. Providence.

God "knowing some future event" does not force that event to occur, however God does not simply know that the event will occur, He has planned that event to occur. And so by default, the event must occur. I believe we have free will, but the dynamics and nature of that free will is difficult to understand and very much beyond the scope of general human understanding.

What are thoughts?

[jimwalton]

First of all, you need to justify (substantiate) biblical references for God's Deterministic Will, which sounds like God controls everything and we are merely robots playing it through—no responsibility, no free will, no accountability. I don't think the Bible teaches God's deterministic will, but I'll be pleased to consider the references you offer and to have a great conversation about it.

Secondly, we need to talk about providence. God as a righteous and sovereign governor is vastly different than God as a beneficent totalitarian. His sovereign rule doesn't require deterministic domination. While the Scripture certainly teaches that God rules the earth with power and dominion, we also know that God's power is sometimes withheld (for instance, he could have sent armies of angels to rescue Christ from the cross, but chose to restrain his power there). And if He can and does restrain his power (as we also know from texts about judgment—God holds back his judging of various people and nations until the proper time), then we are not determined, but are free to exercise free will under God's sovereignty and in a context of God's providence, but not under a deterministic will.

We know from Scripture that God allows people to do as they please, and He works within that framework to draw people to Himself, to accomplish the plan of salvation, and to continue to work for the good of those who love him. Providence has more to do with God's watchful care over, guidance toward his purposes, and sustaining of the universe and His creatures than it does with determinism.

I refer you to Jeremiah 18.1-12, where it shows that God's intent and plan are fluid depending on how people respond. This is the scene of all things being determined but of free will, responsibility, and accountability. I would contend that God has not written the script, but the direction, flow, and purposes of history, and He is ever in flux to bring humanity to his salvific purposes. Perhaps an analogy would be a GPS. A destination has been programmed in, and a course is suggested. We are free to follow that course or to diverge from it. Every time we diverge, we are told that the GPS is recalculating, and it sets a new course to the same destination. When we make wrong turns, the GPS tells us so and instructs us how to get back on route. The GPS never loses sight of the goal, and is determined to get us there. It works untiringly to adjust its course (even sometimes avoiding traffic and congestion areas) to bring us to where we are supposed to go.

So how do I make sense of the idea that God will allow humans to be born into the world, since God knows that this person will not believe in Him? Because God never stops drawing that person to Himself, and there are some theories from very godly theologians who believe that even after death God will continue the process of reconciling all people to Himself. In the end, it is not true that God has written an eternal destination for that person, but that person will choose their own eternal destiny, as we do here on earth. Dennis Jensen believes in a doctrine called semi-restorationism, where after death God will continue to restore even the damned to Himself, and people will yet exercise their free will. Those who are restored may experience a lesser version of heaven, but be there nonetheless. I'm not sure what I think of Dennis's theology, but it's an example of ideas that are out there.

God ultimately knows the course that everything will take and the events that will occur, but, as I said, knowledge is not causative. God has not planned that event to occur. I would still like to see your Bible study on God's deterministic will.

[LoveAndTruth]

Given your views on providence, I understand and accept your answer to my "how do you make sense of" question. Furthermore I think your GPS analogy powerful one and I can see why Jeremiah 18:1-12 gives you that understanding. So I think I'm getting where you are coming from. However, I still have questions about some of the ideas you present. Additionally, I think to clarify what I am trying communicate to you.

Firstly, I don't think God is totalitarian, nor do I think that we are robots with no responsibility, no free will, no accountability. However I do believe that nothing can happen without God's knowledge and approval of it - I think this something we agree on. To further the thought, God must know what decision we will make before we make it. How can He not? He is God who knows all. So in relation to Jeremiah 18:1-12, God must know whether the nation will do evil or do good. And so, using the GPS analogy, God must know the necessary route adjustment in advance of the decision being made. A good question to ask is how much advance does God know what decision we will make at a given point. Personally, I think a possibility is that God must have known the decisions each of us would made from the time universe was created. And therefore, the necessary route adjustments were made from time the universe was created. To put all this in different woulds, I don't think any free-will-based decision can come as a surprise to God. I accept the idea of free will, but I don't think the resulting decisions were unknown to God. And my understanding of God is that He must have known these decisions would have been made from the beginning and made the necessary changes to the route. I think our free will has already been exercised, and that right now in this physical life, we may be just living out what has already been written.

Also, on the GPS, is there only one final destination or are there additional of milestones destinations that we must reach? (just a question I'm throwing out there) We can see from scripture that there is a final destination, but what about along the way. Are there certain places that we must hit? I don't know if there is any scriptural proof against that. Just something to think about (you may or may not have done so already).

"God's power is sometimes withheld (for instance, he could have sent armies of angels to rescue Christ from the cross, but chose to restrain his power there)".
If the angels rescued Christ, wouldn't that have resulted in no salvation? When God chooses to "restrain" his power, its for a reason and ultimately to accomplish His purpose. So I'm not sure how this example fits into the context of this discussion. I'm not trying to pick apart your discussion, it's just that I've heard similar assertions and examples being used before and I wonder about the logic in the argument.

[jimwalton]

Thanks for a great conversation. Glad to talk.

I'm confused how you think God determines everything, and nothing happens without His approval, and yet He's not totalitarian. if you could explain what you're thinking (and give me the Bible sections that support your views), I would be pleased to see them. I'm always looking to learn, to challenge and to be challenged. It's how we grow.

> A good question to ask is how much advance does God know what decision we will make at a given point.

Given that God is omniscient (and I don't think Open Theism is a biblical position), he knows in advance what decision we will make. The real question, in my mind, is did WE make that decision, or did HE, in eternity past? If HE made it, then free will is just an illusion, and I don't think that's a biblical position either. If free will doesn't exist, there really is no such thing as love (for humans). Nor is there such a thing as reason, nor accountability. It's just not possible. Therefore I have to go with the idea, by necessity, that knowledge is not causative and providence is not deterministic.

As far as the GPS analogy, yes, there can be milestones along the way that we must hit. Even our GPSs allow destinations to be inserted en route that are part of the plan.

> When God chooses to "restrain" his power, its for a reason and ultimately to accomplish His purpose.

In a sense yes, and in a sense no. The Bible speaks convincingly of God's sovereign will—He can view all of how history (and our individual lives) will play out, so He knows the exact course it will take. But "to accomplish His purpose" could be a slightly misleading phrase; it depends how you mean it. By it you could mean it's all planned out, and you have no choices in any matters (even when God restrains His power), or you could mean that God withholds His power to let you decide what you will do. (I don't know if I explained those two choices very well. Let me know if I was unclear.) Maybe, just maybe, He withholds His power to see what we will do, as in Jonah 1. In this particular case, however, Jonah made the poor choice and God had to implement His power as a course correction (which has many lessons to it as well). What do you think?