Board index ‹ Free Will

[Salty Andy]

Heaven is said to be a perfect place, but even God's high-ranking angel, Satan, sinned in Heaven and was cast out. This indicates discontent and even jealousy in heaven. With this in mind, could a Christian make it to Heaven and then be cast out? Or is he/she stripped of the gift of free will when entering heaven?

[jimwalton]

Free will always has limitations, or parameters. God has free will, but he's not free to sin. That's an option in contradiction to his character, which is impossible, and therefore not within the scope of possibilities for Him. I have free will, but I'm not free to teleport myself to the rings of Saturn. That's an option in contradiction to my capabilities, and is therefore impossible and not within the scope of possibilities for me. When we get to heaven, we will be changed in many ways (1 Cor. 15; 1 Thes. 4, and others). 1 Jn. 3.2 says "we shall be like him." From that, and other texts, I can easily learn that any desire and capability to sin, disobey God, or blaze a rebellious trail of my own will be transformed out of me, and my free will will conform to the character and nature of God. Neither sin, disobedience, nor rebellion will be an options or a desire. My free will will fall into a different set of limitations than they do now. It's one thing now, on earth, that God cannot interfere with my free will, and I'm free to do whatever righteousness or sin within my scope. When I commit my life to Christ, I'm saying, "Take these sinful parts of my free will and take them away. Conform my thoughts and heart to yours, Jesus." Having been given access, then, to my free will, God is able to transform me into the likeness of his Son and change my free will, because I freely gave him the right to do that with me.

[Jesse James]

I can't wait until Romans 7:15-20 isn't an issue at all (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ns+7:15-20).

I'm free to play the piano, but I haven't spent the time limiting my actions to practice and learning. Real freedom involves limiting some other aspect of your free will. I am only free to God's will when I say no to my own will.

In Heaven, I think, after we are perfectly sanctified, we will be truly free to do God's will and all we do will be "good with Him." I'm not sure what we'll be doing, but it will all be to his glory. I'm looking forward to it.

[The Mayor]

Jim, I have to question your limits on free will. I do not see how my inability to actualize something that is pure fantasy is a limit on free will for one thing. How do you know for certain that the limit is not self-imposed in such a case as opposed to being externally imposed. Might not you unconscious mind be actively blocking you from achieving your goal as opposed to some external force?

As for God's inability to sin, are you certain that God cannot do so as opposed to being wise enough not to sin? The result of God being wise enough not to sin is the same as His being unable to sin, so how do you distinguish?

I personally accept that I will have free will when I am perfected. Part of the process of my perfection will be my gaining the wisdom of what to do with it though.

[jimwalton]

Thanks for the question, Will. Here's my take on it. My example was possibly a trite one, but I think the principle is good. Maybe a better example is that I am not able to will myself to a condition of perfect behavior (sinlessness). My limitations of knowledge, inability to foresee all of the nuances of the consequences of decisions, and my confusion over what the wisest choice might be are barriers to perfection, and I cannot generate perfection from sheer willpower. You may be suspicious that it is self-imposed, and therefore I am deceiving myself, yet in the known history of humankind no one has been able to will perfection, so we have the weight of evidence in favor of what I am claiming. I find that my (and all humans) will finds limitations in every arena: physical phenomena, mental capabilities, moral avenues, and emotional experiences, and spiritual life.

As for God's inability to sin, I reference the Scriptures for the theology that it's not just the ability to make wise choices, but a sinless nature. Despite the various and sundry definitions of sin, many of them pertain to rebellion against God, disobedience to his commands, or acting contrary to his nature. Based on the law of non-contradiction, God cannot possibly be guilty of rebelling against himself, disobeying himself, or contradicting himself. Verses like Hab. 1.13; Titus 1.2; and 2 Cor. 5.21 tell me that God doesn't just not choose sin, but that it's not a viable option for him. He cannot choose it.

[Jesse James]

I think another way to look at limitations on free will is to consider our (humanity's) inability to behave righteously, outside of God's influence. Before God changes us, "even our righteous acts are as filthy rags." Without God, our free will is limited only to those things that are in our nature—our nature being sin. Prior to God's entry in our life, we can't do anything but sin; however, after we are sanctified (regenerated, saved, encounter God, whatever), we have the ability to participate in God's will (but only to the extent that we submit ourselves to Him and understand His plan - again, I think we are limited on earth as to how much we can "not sin" after we become saved). Once we are in Heaven, I don't think we will be able to do anything outside of God's will; i.e., we won't be able to sin. In all cases, we have limitations.

As far as God's inability to behave in some ways...it's the same thing. The nature of God is love. He is, essentially, Righteousness. So not only is every one of His acts righteous, it couldn't be otherwise. I have heard people extrapolate that out and say that, since God is essentially righteous, He couldn't have done other than die on the cross, in the person of Jesus. This is strange for me to consider, though, that there was not any possible alternative that was as righteous or more so. But that has to be the takeaway. The sacrifice of Jesus for us was not only good, but it was an essential act of God.

Extrapolate more and we see that the entire scope of humanity, the whole narrative, is on display (and I daresay designed) to see how God's Righteousness plays out in the face of unrighteousness. The Righteousness of God, His perfect nature, His love and all that demanded that he sacrifice FOR us. Otherwise would be outside His nature, and beyond the scope of his possible actions.

[The Mayor]

Jesse, the problem is that what we are capable of doing and what we actually do can be two entirely different things. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. He did not tell her to go and commit no more adultery, or any other specific sin, but rather told her to avoid sin in general. Would Jesus give the woman a task that she was incapable of doing? I think that He knew that she was fully capable of doing it, but that she would fail because her will to do it would be lacking.

From my studies of the scriptures, the only thing stopping me from living a sinless life if that I do not really have the will to do it. No matter how much I profess the desire to do it, I really don't want to actually do it. Rather I am at war with myself, recognizing what I want but failing to provide the will to actually perform that task.

Now as for sin being something that God cannot do, then you are defining something as greater than God, namely that which prevents God from sinning. If to get around that you define sin as a violation of God's will, then you open up many things to being potentially very strange righteous acts. If however, sin is something that God is capable of, but avoids, we still have a righteous God but without anything greater than He.

[jimwalton]

> Would Jesus give the woman a task that she was incapable of doing?

William, I'm quite convinced that we are to understand Jesus' words not in their raw form (just the words themselves) but contextually and meaningfully. It's not possible for anyone to live a life without sin, just as much as it's impossible for anyone to "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." He is asking her to stop her lifestyle of adultery and instead be a new person with a new love and new behaviors. He's giving the poor woman another chance. Jesus clearly felt that there was hope for her in this life if only she would walk away from her poor choices and be renewed by Jesus' forgiveness. One can only hope that she walked away more like the 10th leper (thanking God for his work in her life) rather than like the rich young ruler (who walked away sad because he wasn't going to change).

> From my studies of the scriptures, the only thing stopping me from living a sinless life is that I do not really have the will to do it.

From my study of the Scriptures, the only thing stopping me from living a sinless life is my sin nature. No matter how strong my will is, I will not be completely free from the pull and attack of sin until I see Jesus.

> Now as for sin being something that God cannot do, then you are defining something as greater than God, namely that which prevents God from sinning.

I don't see your logic here, my friend. It seems you are taking God's nature and perceiving him as submissive to it. To me one's nature is the expression of an inner essence, not a power over me. A dog, because of its nature, barks and wags its tail. The wagging tail is not greater than the dog, nor is the bark. It doesn't "prevent" the dog from anything. Instead, those behaviors are an expression of its inner essence, its "dogness". God's nature is that of righteousness. Righteousness isn't lord over him, coercing him in a certain direction. The directing entity is the essence of his nature, and righteousness is one of the manifestations of that.

Sin has more facets than just a violation of God's will. The Bible defines it in many and various ways. The Scriptures teach that God is not capable of sin (Num. 23.19; 1 Sam. 15.29; Titus 1.2). In all of these texts, the point is that God's nature is fixed and unalterable, and one characteristic of it is truth. Lying is not a possibility.

[Jesse James]

Regarding the woman caught in adultery, I think it's a perfect illustration of humanity. In God's anthropology, humans are sinful (after the fall) by nature. It's who we are. Only an encounter with the one true God can change our nature; when we have that regenerative encounter, we are figuratively cleansed, baptized; Christ's blood cleanses us, that is, removes our sin nature. Only after an encounter like this can we even have the possibility of not sinning. But I don't hold to the idea, as some do, that once we experience that encounter and God changes our nature, we have the ability to be utterly free from sin. We still have that nature in us. I'll admit that there is an antinomy there; on the one hand, we have 1 Corinthians 10:13 that says that there is no temptation that we cannot bear, on the other hand, we have the Romans 7 passage I referenced above.

But maybe there is also a possibility of encountering God, in a non-regenerative way, which results in a person rejecting God, embracing their sin nature and living that way; refusing, basically, to submit their will to His.

For those of us who know Him, we are always struggling to submit to Him and deny ourselves. "I must decrease so that he may increase."

I think that the takeaway is that, with God, all things are possible. The counterpart is that without Him, nothing of value is possible. Temptations, or trials, are things that God can use to purify us, to sanctify us. With His help, we get through them. It is our submitting our will to His that allows this.

It looks like both of the statements you guys made:
-William's: "[...] the only thing stopping me from living a sinless life is that I do not really have the will to do it."

-Jim's: "[...] the only thing stopping me from living a sinless life is my sin nature. No matter how strong my will is, I will not be completely free from the pull and attack of sin until I see Jesus. "

are two sides of the same coin. Our sin nature is such that we can't do right. It takes God to change us.

For God to sin would be like a square hole to exhibit roundness. It's just not his nature, by definition. Semantics, maybe. But it's certainly not that sin is "greater than" God because he can't do it. If anything, sin is "less than" God because he is perfection and sin is imperfect.

[Haroldvess]

Thats in Substitute Dad? mmm, then I just have to try and read it again...

we will never forget... but sometimes I wonder will we ever learn?