Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell

[Kitsch]

> Elisha Moses did die normally, but there is no mention of him going to heaven, so it's likely that he went to Sheol like everybody else.

Don't know why I thought we were talking about Elisha, but Moses would also be in Sheol.

[jimwalton]

Sheol was not hell. It still answers your question.

[Kitsch]

My question was "Where does it say that [Abraham, Elijah and Moses] are in heaven?"

And you sufficiently answered the question: it doesn't. Although, as discussed, Elijah is in Heaven, just not dead. So I guess you were technically right on that one, but the whole 'not being dead' thing seems to be the more salient point.

[jimwalton]

What's making sense is that you don't seem to understand what heaven is. Heaven right now is how we describe God's presence. It's not a place, not where God lives; it doesn't contain God; people don't go there. God is everywhere, so there is not "location" where he lives. It's not part of our universe. When we say we want to go to heaven, what we are really saying is that we want to be in God's presence. It's not a place, per se, it's a relationship.

In the future, though, at the end of time, heaven WILL be a location, and it will be on the earth. There will be a new heaven and a new earth, the holy city will descend to the earth, and that's a physical place where we will live in our resurrection (physical, but a different kind than now) bodies. We are not headed for a ghostlike, spiritual eternity, but a physical existence, though certainly a different kind of physical existence (1 Cor. 15). When you read the description of our final destination in Rev. 22, it's earth. In the end God's presence will fill the earth as it does "the heavens" right now (Rev. 22.3-4). We will all live here in our resurrected bodies.

So of course there's no mention that Abraham, Elijah, and Moses are "in heaven." "Heaven" is not a place; heaven is the spiritual presence of God. Almost every time the word "heaven" or "heavens" is used in the Old Testament it refers to the sky or outer space, not to the location of people after death. Heaven is said to be where God is. But since God is nonmaterial, so also heaven is not a place. Those who die in the Lord are in the presence of the Lord. WE call it heaven, the ancients didn't. They called the place of the dead Sheol. It was temporary. The righteous were said to be waiting resurrection to enjoy the promised blessing (again, not "heaven" as a term or place, Job 14.13-14; 19.25, 27; Ps. 16.9-11; 17.15; 49.15; 73.24).

Sheol is used 65 times in the OT. It's the abode of the dead said to have been in two compartments: one "side" for the righteous dead and the other for the unrighteous (Lk. 16.22-26). And, yes, Abraham was there (Lk. 16.22). After Jesus's resurrection, the righteous dead were transported to Paradise (2 Cor. 12.4). Maybe that helps to answer your question and lead to some new comments and questions.

[Kitsch]

> people don't go there.

You just spent three days arguing that those guys were in Heaven, and now it's not a place, but a feeling? Yeah, I'm done with this conversation.

[jimwalton]

Oh MY GOODNESS. Talk about frustration. We have to define and understand terms. Those men were in God's presence. They were not in hell. They were in what we call "heaven", but it's a misnomer. "Heaven" is not a physical place, but a spiritual reality; God's presence is real and that's where they were. They were glorified; they were in Paradise; they were with God. That's what we were talking about, weren't we? C'mon now.

And I certainly never said heaven is a feeling. Sigh.