Board index ‹ Heaven and Hell

[Alfie]

If the only path to heaven is though Jesus, then did all the people who died before he existed just go to hell?

[jimwalton]

No. Abraham is in heaven (Galatians 3.6-9). Moses and Elijah are both in heaven (Matthew 17.1-5).

In the book of Romans (5.13), Paul says people will only be held accountable for the information they had and what they did with it. They will not be judged according to a law they didn't have, and we can also assume they won't be judged because they didn't know a person they had no possibility of knowing. There is a principal of reasonable accountability. According to Romans 5.13, people are not held accountable for what they had no possibility of knowing or knowing about. In Deuteronomy 1.39, the children who were too young to make a realistic decision are not judged, but are shown mercy; their level of accountability was directly related to their moral awareness. Isa. 7.15-16 teaches the same thing: God deals differently with people based on their knowledge. So we're getting a sense of the fairness of God, and that he takes many things into consideration as he makes his perfect decisions. So people who had no way of knowing Jesus because of where they lived, or people who were prior to Christianity, will be judged according to a fair standard.

So what about people who lived in Asia, or on Papua New Guinea, or South Africa, or Alaska, who never heard of Jesus but lived and died? They will be judged fairly given their own motivations and actions. People will be judged according to the information they had, what they did with it, and their motives behind it. Every judgment will be fair based on what information people had, what they knew, what their motives were, and how they behaved given what they had access to. Otherwise, it wouldn't be fair. So if someone hasn't heard of Christianity, they can't be held accountable for Christianity. But they will be held accountable for what they do know.

C.S. Lewis said, "Here is another thing that used to puzzle me. Is it not frightfully unfair that this should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and have been able to believe in him? But the truth is God has not told us what his arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him. But in the meantime, if you are worried about the people outside, the most unreasonable thing you can do is to remain outside yourself. ... If you want to help those outside you must add your own little cell to the body of Christ who alone can help them. Cutting off a man's fingers would be an odd way of getting him to do more work. ..."

[Kitsch]

> Abraham is in heaven (Galatians 3.6-9). Moses and Elijah are both in heaven (Matthew 17.1-5).

Galatians 3.6-9:
6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Matthew 17.1-5

1 Six days later Jesus took Peter and the brothers James and John with him. They went up on a very high mountain where they could be alone. 2 There in front of the disciples, Jesus was completely changed. His face was shining like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 3 All at once Moses and Elijah were there talking with Jesus. 4 So Peter said to him, “Lord, it is good for us to be here! Let us make three shelters, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While Peter was still speaking, the shadow of a bright cloud passed over them. From the cloud a voice said, “This is my own dear Son, and I am pleased with him. Listen to what he says!”

Where does it say that they are in heaven?

[jimwalton]

The point of Galatians is to delineate how one gets to heaven (how one is justified, 2.15-21): Is it by works of the law, or by grace through faith? Through the whole book he is arguing that the true gospel that leads to eternal life is that of grace by faith (2.16-21; 5.4; 6.8). In 3.6-9 Paul's point is that Abraham was justified by faith (as opposed to those who are cursed because they relied on good works, 3.10; 1.9; 5.16-21).

Galatians is also a condensed version of Romans, which teaches the same things.

- It's about justification that makes it possible for us to go to heaven (Rom. 3.21-26; all of chapter 8)
- It's about grace through faith rather than being good people (5.21)
- Paul's point is that Abraham was justified by faith not by the law (chapter 4)

> Matthew 17.1-5

From where did the glowing Moses and Elijah come? From heaven is the only place. Elijah was taken up to heaven in 2 Kings 2, so the only place he could come from would be heaven. Luke (9.31) says they appeared in "glorious splendor"—from heaven. Peter recognizes this by proposing three tabernacles (Matt. 17.4). The tabernacle was the meeting place between man and God. It was the tent of meeting in the days of the Exodus to Solomon.

The voice that spoke was also from heaven because it was the voice of God.

Therefore Abraham, Moses, and Elijah were all in heaven before Jesus died.

[Kitsch]

The point of Galatians was to convince the Christian community there that newly-converted Gentiles do not have to become Jewish (and therefore undergo circumcision - the part of 'the law' that was a bit of a hard sell) in order to become Christian and therefore achieve Salvation. The passage in question simply says that the true "Children of Abraham" (Jews) are those with faith, not with circumcised penises, because Abraham himself was justified through faith. Doesn't say anything about if Abraham is/was currently in Heaven.

2 Kings 2 describes Elijah ascending into Heaven while he was still alive. The OT is pretty clear on this, so much so that it's common Jewish tradition to set a place for Elijah at the Passover table because when he comes back down from heaven to announce the messiah, he's going to be a bit peckish. So, he's in Heaven, but just not dead. Elisha did die normally, but there is no mention of him going to heaven, so it's likely that he went to Sheol like everybody else.

[jimwalton]

> The point of Galatians was to convince the Christian community there that newly-converted Gentiles do not have to become Jewish (and therefore undergo circumcision

This is true also, in addition to what I said. There are many different ways to express what Paul is trying to get across in Galatians

- To delineate how one is justified, i.e., how to get to heaven, and it is by grace through faith rather than by works of the law
- to convince the Christian community there that newly-converted Gentiles do not have to become Jewish (and therefore undergo circumcision - the part of 'the law' that was a bit of a hard sell) in order to become Christian and therefore achieve Salvation.
- Christian liberty, particularly from the bondage of legalism
- Spontaneous spiritual life vs. legalism
- salvation by works vs. salvation by grace
- ceremonialism vs. the activity of a creative faith
- Of the three possible directions in life (self, religion, relationship with God), choose the life of the Spirit in relationship with God
- Salvation is freely bestowed by God in response to faith which is founded upon his personal revelation through His gospel (1.12)

These aren't contradictory. We don't have to choose one over the other. We can see many levels in the book and recognize the truths of all of these proposals for "the point of Galatians." At the core is the question of what is the true path to God and life with him and what is not. Whether we call the final goal "achieve salvation" or "get to heaven," they are both the same: the goal of salvation is life in fellowship with God for eternity.

> Elijah

So you agree that Elijah was in heaven. OK. Even one example is enough to make the point that people who lived before Jesus went to heaven.

[Kitsch]

> So you agree that Elijah was in heaven. OK. Even one example is enough to make the point that people who lived before Jesus went to heaven.

I refer you to the original question: Did all people who died before Jesus did just go to hell?

Elijah was still alive.

[jimwalton]

OK, but since Moses appeared with Elijah in the same form, at the same time, and Moses had died, my case still stands. If Elijah had been in heaven (even though he had never died), then Moses, who had died, had also been in heaven before Jesus came.

[Kitsch]

Way to get 1 out of 3 right and claim victory.

[jimwalton]

This isn't like a batting average with percentages, it's the objective answer to your question. Note: "Did **all** people who died before Jesus did just go to hell?"

The answer: No. It answers the question. You can sniggle and jockey all you want, but the clear and obvious answer to your question is NO. And if Moses was in heaven before Jesus lived and died, then we can be sure others were, too.