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[Headquarters]

[Christians who believe that Hell is "separation from God"]: How does that square with God being omnipresent?

If God is omnipresent, how is a separation from God possible? Should not God's presence be felt everywhere, even Hell?

And if God is indeed present in Hell, how would the whole "separation" from God work? How are you separated from God, if he is right there!

[jimwalton]

First, God's presence seems in the Bible to have different aspects. In Exodus 33.12-16, Moses requests that God's presence will go with them. But if He is omnipresent, isn't this an absurd conversation? It seems that God can be more present or less present, or present in different ways.

In Exodus after the Tabernacle was built, we read that God presence descended on the holy place. How could it descend if God is omnipresent? God's presence obviously has nuances, degrees, differences, intensities—whatever word you want to use.

Secondly, the separation of hell is not necessarily spacial separation, but relational separation. Ps. 139.8 suggests that God's presence is where the dead are.

The Bible seems to distinguish between "having access to every place" and "being simultaneously in all places." The former is what David is talking about in the psalm, and it was a common perspective in the ancient Near East. David is saying that even in "the depths" God has authority. Christian theology also believes the latter (God is simultaneously in all places), however, though, as I said, God's presence seems to vary in intensity as God wills.

Being separated from God in hell means that person will be shielded from God's protective aspects (love, grace, kindness) so that person will know the true agony of what it would be like if God were not there.

[Honey n Biscuits]

Hey, thank you for citing scripture in your explanation!

Levels of separation make sense. Do you believe others have the same perspective as you and that a lack of sense of God's positive attributes are why people are saying he separated?

Could you think of what scripture may have encouraged the statement that God is not present in Hell leading to the idea of separation from God?

A lot of people told me that when I went to church and I had trouble finding scripture at the time but it made sense to me so I just rolled with it.

[jimwalton]

> Do you believe others have the same perspective as you and that a lack of sense of God's positive attributes are why people are saying he separated?

God's presence is not the only attribute of his that can vary. His power also can. Even though he's omnipotent, he can withhold his power, just use part of it or a little of it as needed, etc. His power also has nuances, degrees, differences, intensities, as does his presence.

I don't know about the perspectives of others. Ha, when we sit around we talk about politics or sports, not theology! : )

> Could you think of what scripture may have encouraged the statement that God is not present in Hell leading to the idea of separation from God?

In terms of generalities, God's presence is a major theme in the Bible. The loss of Eden in Gn. 3 is not the loss of the garden, but the loss of access to God's presence. As Dr. John Walton says in his book The Old Testament Today, "What sin did to us is not as important as what sin did to God. It desecrated his presence." Throughout the entire rest of the Bible, the object is not to regain Eden but to regain access to God's presence. John Davis comments that "the expulsion was not merely geographical; it was spiritual. Fellowship between man and God was broken." So we at least have this overarching biblical framework of fellowship between man and God, the breach of relationship, and the loss of access to God's presence. It would make some sense, therefore, that hell somehow pertains to these realities.

When a family goes through a divorce, and mom & kids have to move from their beautiful home to a cheap 2-bedroom apartment, whatever sense of longing they have for their prior house is insignificant compared to the loss of their home—the family relationship that has been shattered. This is what we mean by separation and the loss of God's presence—the family is now broken. It's not just feelings of sadness, but a sense of true loss, regret, and emptiness.

I said before that what sin did to us is not as important as what sin did to God. It desecrated His presence. In a modern surgery room, one of the utmost priorities is the purity of the room and everything in it. Sin was not just a fly that somehow got in the room, but an invasion of a virus that desecrated the room. To change metaphors, it was like a nuclear accident that caused radiation damage that had lasting effects. People were irradiated; the ground was ruined; their homes were toxic. This is what sin did to God's good (functional) cosmos (Gn. 1)—it desecrated his "temple" (the cosmos) in apparently irreparable ways.

So God is still present with them, but the relationship is broken. A woman friend of mine recently got divorced. When her ex comes in the house, it's just painful. It's not the same and never will be. To use the same words, where there was presence there is now only problems. There is a separation of relationship that, despite presence, is not one of love, help, comfort, and joy. God speaks in the Bible of Israel's apostasy as divorce.

So I would not say that the separation is just in our minds. A divorce has happened between humanity and God. Humanity adulterated himself, God (the innocent party) was wounded, and the relationship became toxic. In hell, it is the same, but to the 100th power.


Much of the biblical narrative is about God's presence. Adam & Eve lost access to his presence, but God was determined to restore it. It's what behind his choice of Abraham, his institution of the covenant, the giving of the law, and the building of the Tabernacle/Temple—so that his presence could be restored to his people. The Levitical code is how Israel should act as the people of God to retain his presence. When He judges them, he removes his presence from them. Jesus is "God with us" (God's presence in the flesh), and in the end times God's presence will be with his people forever (Rev. 21.3). It's in perfect conformity with this theology that hell is perceived as the ultimate withdrawal of God's relational presence.

[Random Chef]

> Being separated from God in hell means that person will be shielded from God's protective aspects

So it's a lot like here. Not such a bad place as I thought.

[jimwalton]

Not at all. Here we are the beneficiaries of God's general grace: certain aspects of health, happiness, strength, friends, and pleasure. We all get good weather days. We all get to see the beauty of the earth. Most of us get to enjoy friendships and love. If you think you are now just the victim of life without God's protective aspects, you're not understanding it right. If you have a home, food, heat/a.c., friends, and fun, then you are benefitting from God's general grace.

In hell, all this is gone. It's a place of isolation (Lk. 13.27-28; 2 Thes. 1.7-9), darkness (Mt. 8.12; Jude 13), remorse and agony over decisions wrongly made (Mt. 8.12; 22.13; 25.30; Lk. 13.28). People joke about hanging out with all their friends in hell, but they haven't read the Bible, then. With the separation from God comes an isolation from each other. In other words, it's not like here at all.

But there are degrees of punishment in hell (totally unlike the different levels of hell as in Dante's Divine Comedy, which is not Scripture).

- Matthew 11.22-24 & Luke 10.12: Jesus says it will be “more tolerable” for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah than for the people of Capernaum. That would indicate to me a more harsh punishment and a less harsh punishment.
- Matthew 23.14: Jesus tells the Pharisees they will be punished more severely for the way they are deceiving the people and living as hypocrites.
- Revelation 20.13: Each is going to be judged according to what he has done. Since that is the case, then the punishments and rewards can’t be the same for everybody.
- and finally, Luke 12.47-48 (workers are punished with more or fewer blows). There are degrees of punishment, and even sins of ignorance are treated differently than sins of intention.

[Headquarters]

> Being separated from God in hell means that person will be shielded from God's protective aspects (love, grace, kindness) so that person will know the true agony of what it would be like if God were not there.

So what we have is certain aspects of God (not love grace kindnesses) directly torturing you?

That's not a "separation" at all. So why use such a term?

[jimwalton]

No. I don't know where you got that impression. God is not actively torturing anyone. The torment comes from the alienation from him.

If you were in the Army, and you told your C.O. you didn't want your unit to protect you. But he insisted it was his job and obligation, and continued to protect you. Then, being a stubborn kind of person, you chose to run away without any gear. He came after you and brought you back. After a dozen more AWOL events, suppose your C.O. decided to let the natural consequences happen—and he would no longer supply you with rations, ammo, protective gear. Hey, if you want to be separated from the unit that badly, don't let the door hit you on the way out. It's not justifiable, then, to claim that the C.O. is "directly torturing you." It was your choice, and after your obstinate insistence that you wanted nothing to do with God, he gives you over to your desires (Rom. 1.21-24ff.).

[Honey n Biscuits]

> When a family goes through a divorce, and mom & kids have to move from their beautiful home to a cheap 2-bedroom apartment, whatever sense of longing they have for their prior house is insignificant compared to the loss of their home—the family relationship that has been shattered. This is what we mean by separation and the loss of God's presence—the family is now broken. It's not just feelings of sadness, but a sense of true loss, regret, and emptiness.

I really like this and the virus/nuclear analogy. That was a wonderful way of explaining your point.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question in such a thought out and clear manner. I understand a lot more and again the scripture was helpful.

[Honey n Biscuits]

Revelation 20:12: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

I stumbled upon this yesterday and I was wondering your thoughts regarding the scripture.

When I read this, I inferred that because God was in charge of everything that occured in Hell. That should be a given that he created everything including how things work in general.

I also noticed that there was a specific book that governed what type of punishments you've gotten based off of your life on Earth. More rules. Either they are written by God or some other being which doesn't make sense to me personally and I doubt you but I could be wrong.

> No. I don't know where you got that impression. God is not actively torturing anyone. The torment comes from the alienation from him.

And even if he wasn't directly torturing them himself, which some would argue against that given that his designated area (or prison) for sinners alone. But if he allows this to happen, isn't he responsible?

My argument: (You can read at the bottom my clearer question)

People like Hitler are hated because of creating an environment of disdain towards a particular group of people and encouraging horrible mistreatment to murder of them. He may have not killed millions of Jews with his own hands but he made the rules and made sure he was enforcing them.

Sure he made it better for his followers and his followers tortured, experimented, murdered but he is still responsible.

> If you were in the Army, and you told your C.O. you didn't want your unit to protect you. But he insisted it was his job and obligation, and continued to protect you. Then, being a stubborn kind of person, you chose to run away without any gear. He came after you and brought you back. After a dozen more AWOL events, suppose your C.O. decided to let the natural consequences happen—and he would no longer supply you with rations, ammo, protective gear. Hey, if you want to be separated from the unit that badly, don't let the door hit you on the way out. It's not justifiable, then, to claim that the C.O. is "directly torturing you."
I don't think this particular analogy is fair, I did like the other ones you posted here though. The difference with God is that the natural consequences are things he initiated.

It's like the C.O. saying if you want to do your own thing, I literally will stab you in the back repeatedly because I told you not to. Disobeying would be considered to be "asking for it" but that doesn't make it less heinious of an act.

And that is why people like me have trouble seeing it as mercy to follow all of these strange rules, have uncertainty as to what way is right given the mutliple denominations of Christianity alone and then consider it merciful that God decided that disobeying this particular rule or that one in the short amount of years you have is worthy of billions of years of torment that he is orchestrates.

To reword my question better: How can you interpret the scripture provided along with others that allow you to make this conclusion that God is not tortuing for disobeying him (sining) and that this is more similar to your analogy rather than to mine?