Board index ‹ LGBT: Gays, Lesbians, Bisexual, Transgender, and Homosexuality

[Newbie]

Really my frustration is the confusion of orientation with behavior. Here’s my question: Is it homosexual orientation or homosexual behavior that the Bible says is sin?

[jimwalton]

The only place to get an honest, reliable answer is to go directly to the text of the Bible.

Gen. 19: There is no reference or discussion of any kind about orientation. The story is about their behavior that night.

Lev. 18.22: “Do not have sexual relations…” The commandment is about homosexual behavior: the act of homosexual love-making.

Lev. 20.13: “If a man lies with a man…” The ban and punishment are based on their behavior: what they “have done.”

Jesus says nothing on the subject.

Acts 15.28-29: The leaders of the church mandate abstention from sexual immorality (porneia) of all kinds. In the Greek and Roman culture, this word means prostitution: sex that is bought. Again, it is behavior. The essence of porneia was treating another human being as a thing, and it was forbidden.

Rom. 1.26 doesn’t mention orientation, but focuses strongly on the behavior. It does, however, speaking strongly against “shameful lusts;” “erotic passions” (the condition out of which the lusts spring)—the urges that result in active expression.

Rom. 1.27 does the same. It speaks not of orientation, but function, though it also mentions what is under the actions, namely, the burning desires.

1 Cor. 6.9-11: These shall be excluded from the kingdom of God: the sexually immoral (Pornoi [prostitutes]), adulterers (moichoi), male prostitutes (malakoi – generally speaking of the passive, “female” partner in a pederastic relationship), and homosexual offenders (arsenokoitai – generally the perpetrator in a pederastic relationship). These are all behavioral terms.

1 Tim. 1.10: On the list of “rebels, the ungodly, and sinful,” are homosexual offenders (arsenokoitai – generally the perpetrator in a pederastic relationship). This is a term about behavior.

Jude 7: The sexual immorality (not just homosexuality) of Sodom is an example of apostasy and considered to be perversion.

And I’ll choose to include this quote from J.I. Packer, well-respected evangelical Anglican theologian:

"First: What is Paul talking about in this vice list (1 Cor. 6.9-11)? Answer: Lifestyles, regular behavior patterns, habits of mind and action. He has in view not single lapses followed by repentance, forgiveness, and greater watchfulness (with God’s help) against recurrence, but ways of life in which some of his readers were set, believing that for Christians there was no harm in them.

"Second: What is Paul saying about these habits? Answer: They are ways of sin that, if not repented of and forsaken, will keep people out of God's kingdom of salvation. Clearly, self indulgence and self service, free from self discipline and self denial, is the attitude they express, and a lack of moral discernment lies at their heart.

"Third: What is Paul saying about homosexuality? Answer: Those who claim to be Christ's should avoid the practice of same sex physical connection for orgasm, on the model of heterosexual intercourse. Paul's phrase, "men who practice homosexuality," covers two Greek words for the parties involved in these acts. The first, arsenokoitai, means literally “male bedders,” which seems clear enough. The second, malakoi, is used in many connections to mean “unmanly,” “womanish,” and “effeminate,” and here refers to males matching the woman's part in physical sex.

"In this context, in which Paul has used two terms for sexual misbehavior, there is really no room for doubt regarding what he has in mind. He must have known, as Christians today know, that some men are sexually drawn to men rather than women, but he is not speaking of inclinations, only of behavior, what has more recently been called acting out. His point is that Christians need to resist these urges, since acting them out cannot please God and will reveal lethal impenitence.

"Fourth: What is Paul saying about the gospel? Answer: Those who, as lost sinners, cast themselves in genuine faith on Christ and so receive the Holy Spirit, as all Christians do (see Gal. 3:2), find transformation through the transaction. They gain cleansing of conscience (the washing of forgiveness), acceptance with God (justification), and strength to resist and not act out the particular temptations they experience (sanctification). As a preacher friend declared to his congregation, 'I want you to know that I am a non practicing adulterer.' Thus he testified to receiving strength from God."
- J.I. Packer, Why I Walked, Christianity Today, Jan. 2003

Now, I am trying very hard not to force the Bible to say more than it is saying, nor do I want to be soft-peddling the clear teaching of Scripture. As such, I will add this:

I believe the verses, without exception, are speaking of homosexual behavior, and not homosexual orientation. From my reading of history and culture, homosexual orientation was never a thought in the ancient world. Ours is, to my knowledge, the first culture brazen enough to press for homosexual marriage. In ancient cultures, homosexual behavior was mostly an act of domination and pederasty—child sexual abuse—and not of a lifestyle of ongoing gay relationships. As Sarah Ruden says, "Homosexual practice in the Greco-Roman world bore little resemblance to its practice in modern culture. There were no gay households, gay institutions, or gay culture at all." In the ancient world homosexuality was mostly an accepted and encouraged practice of child sexual abuse, and Paul considered it depravity.

So saying, then, homosexual orientation, by itself, may not be sin, but it’s clear that homosexual love-making is.

I also feel a need to add that desires matter, for all of us. What’s inside does count.

James 1.14-15 is a strong warning to us all, regardless of sexual orientation or anything else for that matter: our desires and longings can easily deceive us and not only do us harm, but cause us to sin. We each have evil desires inside of us that work to keep our souls in bondage and lead us away from God. And those lustful desires, which Romans 1.26-27 references and Jesus also mentions in Mt. 5.28, are themselves sinful even before they result in sinful actions. We can’t be naïve: fleshly desires are some of the strongest and the first to pop out whenever they are given a chance. That’s why they are often listed as the examples.

[greybeardcog]

In my thinking the orientation may be sin or may not be depending on the source.

God has oriented me to be attracted to women. There is nothing wrong here. But, if I am married to one woman, yet have a significant fantasy life devoted to having sex with other women, I sin, even if I never act on those fantasies. The source of the fantasy life is myself and it is sin.

Fantasizing about doing wrong is itself wrong. If it is wrong to do it it is wrong to think about doing it.

So orientation can be sinful be it heterosexual or homosexual. We need to examine ourselves (and why not with God's help?) and judge what of our passions or orientations are sinful.

But before we judge the orientation of someone else we need to be warned that we are collectively responsible for it. I conclude this from Romans 1.

As I see it, in Romans 1 Paul describes the descent of mankind into delusion, ignorance, and sinfulness.
I don't think he wrote it so that his readers could identify the sinners from the sanctified, or even to make a list of sins, and certainly not an exhaustive list. Paul describes the descent of sinful man as a cycle of wrong choices made (delusion, ignorance and sinful behavior) and the consequences (God's giving over of sinful man to the choice to make increasingly wrong choices). He does not suggest that any one person is guilty of every and all the sins listed. I think he is stating that all men are guilty, collectively, for all the sins described.

In verse 18 the subject is described as "men" but perhaps he meant "men who suppress the truth" as the NIV puts it.
But in verse 20 the subject is "men". Perhaps here "men" is short hand for "men who suppress the truth", or else he has meant just "men" in both instances. Men have done these things and God give over all men to do more.

It is clear from the weight of scripture that God holds accountable the whole community or nation or race for the actions of some, particularly if the group largely condones or merely fails to condemn those actions. This truth is stated repeatedly in the prophets. It seems fair to conclude that God holds all "men" responsible for all the sins described and more. And, that the consequence of sin is the removal of restraint against descent into greater sin.

If this is the case then all "men" bare some of the responsibility for all the sins "men" have committed.

If this is true then I need to be compassionate to people who have committed sins I have not committed, because God holds me collectively responsible for them. And if this is true then I need to be compassionate to people who are drawn to sins I have not done because God holds me collectively responsible for them. My general sinfulness has contributed to their particular sinfulness, and to their being drawn to a certain sin.

We all sin, but, Christians look at certain sins being worse than others. There is evidence in scripture that some sins are worse than others. But, in John 8 we are taught that the Lord would have us not look down on others because their sin is worse than ours. We need to be compassionate to people who are drawn to sins we have not done. We need to pray that the the mercy of God will find sinners, and that sinners will find God's mercy, because we are also sinners, and no better than anyone else, absent God's grace.

Lord, help me help others find the mercy with which you have found me.

[jimwalton]

I really like what you've said. Thank you for writing it. I'll make a few comments, but don't take them as disagreements.

Matthew 5 affirms what you are saying: the thought life can be just as "dangerous" and sinful as actually doing the sins. But we also need to understand (and I'm guessing you would agree) that the place to put a stop to sin is between the thought and the action. We all have thoughts pop into our heads that are thoughts that tempt us. I'm not sure it's a sin because the thought has popped into my head, but it can easily and quickly become a sin if I entertain the thought, nurture it, and then of course let it give birth into action. But I'm not sure that the thought popping in in the first place is a sin. When those thoughts come, we need to dismiss them immediately, and at that moment I think we have avoided sin.

I agree that Romans 1 describes the descent of humankind into self-delusion, rebellion, and sinfulness, and clearly his point is not to identify the sinners from the sanctified. His point, which is quite clear by the time he gets to Romans 3, is that we are ALL sinners. Not one of us is "sanctified". Paul, I agree, describes our sinfulness as wrong choices, open rebellion, self-delusion, willful substituting God with our own values and actions. All humans are guilty.

In Rom. 1.18, he's not mentioning that there is certain (restrictive) class of humans have rebelled. His point is that all humans are ungodly and unrighteous, and all have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. (Don't infer that I am disagreeing or arguing with you here. I'm not, but only expositing on what you said and on what Rom. 1.18 says.) It's true that often in Scripture God holds the entire community accountable for the actions of some, as you have said. But in this context of Romans 1 (as elucidated in Romans 3) that each and every one, as well as the community as a whole, stands in a state of guilt and separation from God by virtue of sin.

Your point is well-made and well-taken that we, as a result, need to be compassionate to people who have "committed sins I have not committed." Bravo. Someone has said (and I agree): "Don't judge someone because they sin differently than you."

As you have stated, we do know that certain sins are worse than others. Jesus says this very clearly in Jn. 19.11. It's interesting, though, that we haven't been given the list. We try to infer some sort of order by logic and even sometimes by Scripture, but such attempts are always flawed and unreliable. Jesus defines the great sins as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and rejection of him as God. Beyond that, there isn't a lot of clarity about the hierarchy. Our attempts to do so are sometimes with noble intent, but too often with judgmental and proud hearts. We should, instead, nurture eyes for our own sin far more than for the sins of others (Mt. 7.1-5; Gal. 6.1). Granted, it is within our scope to have judicial assessment over fellow believers (1 Cor. 5.12). But we know from many Scriptures that the intent of such assessment is to restore (Gal 6.1 et al.); condemnation is only the final straw and a last resort, and never embedded in the original intent.

Thank you for your post. It is very worthy reading.