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[RascaLinFaith]

Hi,

So In Matt. 27:46 Jesus cries, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” I read the other thread and you emphatically state that Jesus was indeed spiritually separated from the Father; but, in the full context of Psalm 22, there is no separation - not like that. When he atones for us God does not turn away - If you read all of Psalm 22, it's simply not there.

-He voluntary condescended into human lineage.
-Look at the next verse (2-3); He is identifying himself as an Israelite.
-He identifies with Israel completely (throughout the whole Psalm); He embraces the suffering of Israel.
-V20: nephesh should be translated here as life, not soul.
-V21: answer me from the horns of the wild oxen; in other words – I’ve been gored, I’m dying; save me, Yahweh – He doesn’t die on the cross as God – He hangs there, fully a man of Nazareth, knowing that He is God, not grasping it. Relating to His Abba as a man – for us.
-So in between V21 and 22 we see a break
-V24 – DID NOT HIDE HIS FACE FROM HIM

If we hold to the doctrine of perichoresis, where was God when Jesus got crucified if they all indwell each other? Only Jesus died on the cross, but he's the whole God. I understand that only the hypostasis of the Son died on the cross; this is where we must start.. but how do we formulate our theology to accommodate that reality?

When Jesus was on the cross was he filled with the Holy Spirit? If He was, which He was because the Father gave Him the Spirit without measure, how could He be separated from his Abba while being fully indwelled by the Spirit?

Is it possible that although God never left Him, in his humanity, He felt the weight of being abandoned by God far more deeply that we could ever imagine? This would be similar to us – sometimes we feel abandoned by God, although in reality He never leaves.

In the text – you see Jesus holding onto his humanity until the very end, when he could have accessed his divinity at any time. He hung there, and shared in the human experience with us. He did this so he could feel abandonment by His Abba, rejection from the world and humiliation by the religious leaders. Yet through all of this He would not touch his divinity, as it were. He died – and that’s his victory. That’s what Psalm 22 is talking about. He filtered his experience voluntarily through the Human lens. He lowered himself for us – all while at the same time being in heaven. Would you agree?

[jimwalton]

Psalm 22 is not the regulator of Matthew's interpretation of it. Matthew is known to take OT prophecies and fill them out with new interpretations, certainly guided by the Holy Spirit, but not at all what was intended by the original authors. This would apply to the quote from Isaiah about the virgin birth, from Jeremiah about the crying in Ramah, the sign of Jonah, and many others. The OT doesn't regulate Matthew's use of them, or that Matthew believes that the OT passage is being "filled up" (Mt. 1.22) by Jesus. Matthew understood the OT passage as a pattern that is being filled up with more meaning. Some of these passages weren't even thought to be prophecies about the Messiah, and they can be completely understood in their historical OT context. And yet Matthew takes them and applies new meaning to them (meaning that was not in the original text), making them into something they were not understood to be, all under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit.

As such, we can't critique Matthew's use of Ps. 22 by examining the Psalm to see what is and isn't there. In the first place, that's typical of how Matthew uses OT texts and prophecy, and in the second place Matthew's use of Ps. 22.1 is never explicated for us, so we are left to interpret what Jesus meant by saying that from the cross. While your observations about Psalm 22 may be legitimate, we are still left to interpret what Jesus meant and what Matthew's point (and Mark's) is in including the quote (while Luke and John do not).

As you know, there is no shortage of musings about the definition and dynamics of the Trinity. The three persons of the Trinity are revealed to be one essence, and therefore compatible with perichoretic ideas, and yet capable of separate actions, such as the incarnation and death. Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as indwelling us as a way that he (Jesus) indwells us (Jn. 14.17-18), but there is no similar teaching that the Father was incarnated as the Son was incarnated. There is also no teaching that the Father died on the cross, nor the Spirit, but only the Son. It was the Son who was incarnate in the flesh.

When Jesus was on the cross was he filled with the Holy Spirit? Certainly. But there is never intimation that the Father indwelled Jesus as the Spirit indwelled Jesus. They are separate "persons". These are complex theological realities, but we can only be guided by the revelation of Scripture. In that sense we can say that Jesus died on the cross, but not the Spirit or the Father. We can say that the Spirit indwelt Jesus, but never did the Father indwell Jesus. We can affirm that Jesus felt the weight of being abandoned by God more deeply than we could ever imagine, but we are left to interpret in what sense Jesus could say, "Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani?".

In the end we know that Jesus' humanity died on the cross. Some say he faced spiritual death as well, being forsaken by the Father and then descended into hell. It's a paradox of prodigious proportions to ponder how Eternal Life died that day, how the unity of God experienced the cross, and what Jesus meant by his quoting of Ps. 22.1. There was indisputably humiliation, sharing of our human suffering, atonement, abandonment (at some level), and real death. You are interpreting Psalm 22 by your own understandings, as was I. Scripture teaches that he was not merely filtering his experience voluntarily through the human lens, but his complete humanity is a necessary basis of Christian faith (Heb. 2.9-18).

[RascaLinFaith]

Thank you Jim, I really appreciate your response.

In terms of the believer, we know that the Holy Spirit indwells us, which is "Christ in us, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27); and in a similar way we are also in Christ (1 Cor. 6:17; 2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:6). Indeed, we are united with Him.

From your knowledge of the scriptures and experiences in life, could you speak about what it means to abide in Christ? What does your prayer life look like? God is triune.. therefore, how should our understanding of this triunity (however limited it may be) effect our prayer and our worship and our evangelism and our apologetics?

How does a believer truly immerse one's self in Christ?

[jimwalton]

Great question. Thank you for asking. Before I share some of my personal experiences, I want to address a few technicalities about prayer, particularly as they relate to the Trinity. First, according to the Bible's teaching and example, we are only to pray TO the Father. In the Bible no one ever prays to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit. We pray TO the Father in the NAME of Jesus. There is no directive to ever pray in the name of the Holy Spirit or in the name of YHWH. Just a fun little digression.

What does it mean to abide in Christ? I had a vision in prayer once (I know that sounds mystical and uber-spiritual, but it wasn't like that). I saw myself as filthy and worthless, and I was crying out to Jesus because I needed him so badly. He approached me and told me to lie down, and he "unzipped" me: unzipped my skin so that my spiritual insides were exposed. (I know, this is weird. Bear with me.) Inside of me was all this junk and filth and scum. Jesus scraped me clean and got all the garbage out. Then, when I was expecting he would "zip me up" again, he didn't. Instead he climbed inside of me as if I were a costume to wear, and he put his arms into my arms as sleeves, his legs into my legs like pants, and his head up into my head. Then he zipped me up.

This is what it means to abide in Christ. My heart is now his heart. My thoughts are his thoughts. My hands are his hands, my feet are his feet, and my lips are his lips. I am not my own. I walk in the newness of life. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live. Yet not I, but Christ lives in me. And the life that I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I don't do anything but that it is Christ in me doing it. Everywhere I go, he is my presence. I have clothed myself with Christ, but it's both inside and out. It's more than fellowship; Christ is IN me, the Hope of Glory. Fellowship gives way to unity, and experience is not just relationship in terms of friendship but relationship in terms of mutuality (Jn. 17.21).

What does prayer look like in this scenario? I talk to the Father, just as Jesus did. Prayer is not a cavalier speech, but connecting with the essence of the Creator/Sustainer/Redeemer. I take time to get in my head Who it is I'm talking to, grasping his immense majesty and splendor. Worship is unavoidable. Confession is straightforward as in Isa. 6.5. In His presence there is little option. And then I say all that I want. But I talk to the Father. Jesus is in me, so I'm not talking to him. I pray in his presence, in his name. The Spirit indwells and does his work of convicting, guiding, praying for me, etc.

Worship? I worship the Father and the Son. I'm not aware that we are ever instructed, commanded, or given an example to worship the Holy Spirit. Each person of the Trinity has their place.

Evangelism? My evangelism is of Jesus. I am a witness to His salvation. Jesus is the subject of the conversation. Jesus—his incarnation, life, death and resurrection.

Apologetics? The whole shootin' match. Apologetics is not defending the faith, but sharing the treasure chest in my possession: The glory of God, the work of Jesus, the reality of the Spirit and the spirit, the truth of the Gospel, the worth of salvation, and the way of Life.