Board index ‹ Miracles

[Jazzy Jeff]

I’m an atheist, used to be a strong Christian until I moved out of home. Recently I’ve been having some very respectful discussions with a friend of mine about our different beliefs and he bought up the idea that miracles happen all the time, but seem to happen in locations that are underdeveloped and have no access to camera phones or any reliable recording devices. So just want to ask you guys, anyone have something that might be considered reliable proof of a miracle?

[jimwalton]

Craig Keener has written a two-volume set (http://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/miracles/335370) studying both the New Testament and current day miracles. You may want to check that out if you're serious and not just trolling. There's also a 45-minute youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn73J9A0SnU) of him presenting his research, if you want to sit for that long.

The problem with what you want is that it would take the effort to set up the experiment, agree on methodology, establish a control set, and be able to regular all possible factors to be able to truly determine whether a true miracle verifiably happened. This simply isn't the way God works. Realistically, that means that a person with miracle ability contacts a research organization to find funding, set up the parameters, establish the rules, regulate the control group—and then say, "OK, NOW do your miracle." Say what? That's not how it works.

Then suppose the miracle worker heals a person. Who's to say that somebody isn't going to say, "Well, that would have maybe happened anyway. Maybe their body just did it and the timing was lucky." It's not trying to be smart aleck, but just wondering how you're ever going to get what you're asking.

Let me give you a real life example. My son, at 19 years old, was suddenly rushed to the hospital with a life-threatening stroke. It was a Sunday evening, he was totally incoherent, and his one side was non-functional. When he talked it was total babel. The doctors said he may not live, and if he did, his functionality might be minimal. His church gathered to pray, and by email and Facebook, people all over the world also prayed. The next morning the church had a special prayer meeting at 6 in the morning. My wife and I went into his room at 9 am on Monday morning. He said to us (I kid you not), "Hi Mom. Hi Dad. What's going on?" I was THERE. I consider this to be miraculous. Later diagnoses identified that the stroke was in his brain stem, where life functions reside. And yet the very next morning, after the prayers of many, he was talking coherently, and today lives a productive life.

I told this story once before once on this forum. Here's the reaction I got: "Yeah, that's not a miracle, dude. Be serious. That's a dude recovering from a stroke like lots and lots of other people do all the time. Be thankful to the medical staff. They're the ones who saved your son."

So who's to ever be able to document miracles in a conclusive way? How would you even do that?

[Jazzy Jeff]

I think you’ve touched on why it’s so important to be able to verify claims like this, though. Why can’t god do a miracle on command—apparently he’s done it before, in the bible with the pile of logs he got someone (can’t remember his name) to wet and then he set alight while another team of people prayed for a different god to do the same.

The healing thing just seems to me like someone is taking advantage of scared desperate people looking for a cure for some dealing condition. If there was reliable proof somewhere it would be amazing right? Free unending healthcare. Proof that god actually cares about us.

I’ve seen people claim to heal people in front of my eyes before, I’ve seen it ‘happen’ with broken bones and blindness myself. Check in with the ‘healed’ a few days later, still wearing glasses and still needing crutches. They were unhealed.
Without proof this just seems like a lot of liars leading the easily led.

[jimwalton]

Certainly there are liars and fakers out there, fer sher, but that doesn't mean we can cavalierly relegate all claims of miracles to the trash pile. it sure would be nice to very miraculous claims with careful scientific research, but they are as the Lord gives the ability. I don't know what your knowledge of the Bible is, but in the New Testament there were times when Paul healed some people, and one guy he even raised from the dead. But then there are other times when Paul asked prayer for his sick friend. Well, why didn't he just heal him? It's because Paul didn't have the power in himself to use willy-nilly, but rather only when God empowered him for such. You can't just set up a science experiment.

And, yes, there was one time in the OT when Elijah called down fire from heaven (1 Ki. 18). One time.

> The healing thing just seems to me like someone is taking advantage of scared desperate people looking for a cure for some dealing condition.

First of all, some people are scared when faced with a desperate health crisis. Second, it's not legitimate to claim that every described healing is scared stupid people willing to fall for anything.

> I’ve seen people claim to heal people in front of my eyes before, I’ve seen it ‘happen’ with broken bones and blindness myself. Check in with the ‘healed’ a few days later, still wearing glasses and still needing crutches. They were unhealed.

Yeah, I know this happens, and it's all too common. There are a lot of charlatans and fakers out there. We've even seen plenty of exposes on TV. They have people planted in the audience, and they use tricks and blah blah. A bunch of fakers. But again, that doesn't mean everyone is. I could point out a group of horrible politicians right now, but that doesn't everyone who is a politician is a scoundrel and a jerk.

> Without proof this just seems like a lot of liars leading the easily led.

No doubt a bunch of them are. We can't just be too stupid or too gullible and fall for everything. And of course I advocate proof as well, but there's just no way to do a science experiment, isolate all the factors, and then do a miracle on demand. I've known people whose bodies were riddled with cancer, and then it was, like, just gone. The doctors say, "We can't explain it." The religious people cry "miracle," and the non-religious say, "isn't the body amazing?" How could you ever, and I mean EVER, set up a situation where every factor was controlled so that you would know that it was a divine or a natural consequence. I don't think there is such a test. Cancer is suddenly gone from the body with no natural explanation, and even then people will say, "Well, something natural must have happened." They say that because they don't allow for the supernatural. In the case of my son, the doctors weren't doing anything. He had an IV drip, EKG monitor on, and they were waiting. They said there was nothing they could do. They were not expecting him to live. The next day he was talking. The doctors said they had no explanation. So, did something natural happen or did something divine, and how would you ever know?