Board index ‹ Noah's Ark & the Flood

[Abernathy]

The issue/question in the OP is if God is omniscient, then God would not have created these people knowing they were bad and knowing God would need to destroy them or God did not know and makes really big mistakes. Its an either or. Has nothing to do with trying to rationalize ISIS, which is pretty sick.

[jimwalton]

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to respond.

First of all, please read more carefully. I never tried to rationalize ISIS. That would be sick, and I would appreciate not being blamed for doing that. What I was saying was that good people work to reduce hatred and evil. So if God is good, he would also work to reduce hatred, corruption, and evil.

Secondly, God didn't create anyone bad. People become bad by their own choices and their own doings. Back in the days of Noah, just as today, there were repeated efforts on the part of good people to help bad people become good (2 Pet. 2.5). Back in the days of Noah there were people walking with God (Gn. 5.22-24). God was using people to help people NOT be bad. God was giving them opportunities to turn away from their badness, and if they had they would not have been killed (see Jonah 3.10; 4.2, 10-11). It can't be any more clear. God cannot be blamed when people choose bad despite many efforts to turn them away from it. It's an either/or, as you say: if they will just turn to God, they'll be spared (Jonah story); if they don't and insist on being evil, God has a right to punish them for their evil and to stop it from spreading to the rest of society. It simply doesn't follow that because people choose badness God can't possibly be omniscient.

[Abernathy]

I understand what you have been saying, but the point of the OP is asking if God knew or didnt know that the people would be bad. Its not really about free will or that people made bad choices or God giving opportunities. And yes, God did create bad people. They may have chose to be bad, but it was God that created them knowing they would be bad. No way around that.

Your explanation really doesn't matter if God already knew exactly what would happen. There would be no reason for God to give opportunities because if God is omniscient, then God already knew they would "insist on being evil". Can't be both that God knew but was still trying to help them. That would be sadistic because God would know they would not change and God would need to destroy them. The logic falls apart.

[jimwalton]

> if God knew or didnt know that the people would be bad.

The answer to this is a clear "yes." God knew that people would be bad.

> And yes, God did create bad people.

Now this you have to support. Where in the Bible could we ever get the idea that God created bad people. You need to support your claim, and I'll need to see it.

> They may have chose to be bad, but it was God that created them knowing they would be bad. No way around that.

This is completely different. If I paint my house red, and you come while I'm on vacation and pain it blue, you can't claim I am responsible for the blue. If God created people good, and then people by their own choices and doings turned bad on their own recognizance, then you can't claim God created bad people.

> Your explanation really doesn't matter if God already knew exactly what would happen.

Of course it does. Knowledge isn't causative. Only power can be causative. Knowledge doesn't make anything happen, and knowledge doesn't make anyone do anything. Everyone has a chance to make their own decisions and figure things out. God adjusts (Jer. 12.1-18; Jonah 3-4). I could be the smartest person in the world, and I could know you inside and out, but my knowledge has no causative effect on your behavior (I'm not a Jedi). Even if I were omniscient, that doesn't cause anybody to do anything. God knows everything, but that doesn't mean he makes everything happen.