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[Zipper]

I think the title speaks for itself. Does god know where he came from? Is he aware of his origins? Do you think he ever sits around wondering how he got here? or why he's here?

[jimwalton]

The nature of our consciousness as human beings is that we are self-aware. Besides being quite obvious, philosophers like Descartes tried to put it into a formula with his famous "I think therefore I am." Since the Bible attributes both consciousness and self-awareness to God (and I think it's safe to say that they are necessary characteristics of true divinity), God would know the truth that he is without origin and self-existent. Therefore he is by necessity, both of his omniscience and his self-awareness, aware that he had no origin and doesn't have to sit around wonder how he got here. Also, being self-aware and omniscient, he would reasonably know why he's here: because he's God.

You seem to be asking a self-contradictory question: Does God in his omniscience and eternity know how he started? If he doesn't, then he's not omniscient. And if he's eternal, then he didn't have an origin to be aware of. It's a false dichotomy based on fallacious definitions.

[Zipper]

Not necessarily.

Eternal—by definition—means not limited by time—timeless. But as far as we know time began at the creation of the universe when space and time came into existence apparently simultaneously. Once you hit the limit of time, the meaning of the word 'eternal' becomes incoherent. I'm not an etymologist, but I would suspect that "eternal" was meant to define existence in an infinite future—not attempt to reconcile it with a finite past. Eternal comes from the Latin aeternus "of an age, lasting, enduring, permanent, everlasting, endless". You see—'endless', not 'beginningless'. All the words related to defining 'eternal' imply a non-ending future but not an infinite past.

So the question becomes more one of defining 'existence' without having time nor space in which to 'exist'.

So when one defines god as 'eternal' that doesn't really get you out of the predicament of having a start point. It just moves that start point to somewhere that you haven't defined. My question relates to whether god knows what that undefined point is as we most certainly do not.

[jimwalton]

I'll give you credit for a worthy analysis, but it's not a biblical one. So if you want to talk about God, then we need to talk in biblical terms as well as philosophical and etymological ones. You've offered a definition of "eternal," but it's a word that can have nuances of definition,not just one: "not limited by time." For instance, the Bible draws a distinction at times between "eternal" and "everlasting," the former meaning infinite in both directions and the latter implying a beginning but no end. That's where you're slightly off the mark by trying to restrict the definition of "eternal" to "an infinite future." For instance, in Revelation 1.8 God is described as Alpha and Omega, who was and is and is to come. It's a statement of his eternity in both temporal directions.

In the Bible God is revealed as not being limited by physical laws and dimensions (Ps. 90.4; 2 Pet. 3.8). Psalm 90.2 is the clearest expression of it: God goes from everlasting (past) to everlasting (future). Titus 1.2 tells us about some of God's plans before the beginning of time. While it's quite logically true that space and time came into existence simultaneously, God is said to be the author and creator of both of those dimensions.

So it does speak quite plainly and clearly to the theology that God has no starting point, contrary to your case.

[Zipper]

> For instance, in Revelation 1.8 God is described as Alpha and Omega, who was and is and is to come. It's a statement of his eternity in both temporal directions.

I'm not sure that your interpretation here is either the only one or the correct one. Alpha being the start point and Omega being the finish point seems to imply a beginning and an end.

I'm also not sure the book of Psalms is the definitive word on this. After all, the OT has numerous passages where god is not the ONLY god but rather the only god that Israel is to worship. That leaves open a world of opportunities for the god of the bible to have an origin.

"Eternal" in the OT wasn't a 'state out of time' as you claim. The biblical word for it translates into 'forever' or 'for always', which are both descriptors that involve time. The interpretation and language of eternal that exists 'as a state out of time' belongs to Plato, Aristotle, and Aquinas. If you choose this definition of eternal as the 'correct' one then that interpretation of it is non-biblical and I'd say your interpretation is entirely post hoc.

[jimwalton]

The thought behind Alpha and Omega is truly "the beginning and end," but since no end is envisioned by Omega (Rev. 1.8, 18; Heb. 1.8), it's inconsistent to define Alpha as having a beginning. Jesus expresses his eternity without a beginning in Jn. 8.58 and 17.5.

> I'm also not sure the book of Psalms is the definitive word on this.

Regardless of your thoughts on the development of monotheism, the Psalms don't just claim that YHWH was before others gods, but that he was God from everlasting to everlasting. Your objection rings empty.

> Eternal in the OT wasn't a 'state out of time' as you claim. The biblical word for it translates into 'forever' or 'for always'—which are both descriptors that involve time.

Then you must be aware of a Hebrew term expressing eternity that doesn't include a time descriptor? Ah, but there isn't one, so we take the definition from context and intent, which is clearly that God was before time. Many interpretations of Gn. 1.3-5 are that what God is ordering here is the sequence of day and night in a regular series, i.e., he is creating time. The OT is filled with references that God has no time boundaries: Gn. 21.33; 1 Chr. 16.36; 29.10; Neh. 9.5 et al. Need I go on? Methinks thou protests too much, working awfully hard to try to discredit the clear meaning of these texts. There's always Ps. 93.2: "Your throne was established long ago; you are from all eternity"—a specific and clear reference to no beginning. One of so many.

[Zipper]

Actually, the word used in Genesis to describe 'eternity' is 'leOlam' - which, literally translated, means 'for the world' - le meaning 'for' or 'to' and 'Olam' meaning world. (I'm fluent in both modern and biblical Hebrew). So I'm afraid that your inference that this passage in some way references something 'outside of time' rings false as, I'm sure you'll concede, the world is temporal.

Any implications, then, from the OT regarding a lack of 'time boundaries' is purely your 'interpretation' and is in no way representative of the actual words of scripture.

Now in reference to your claim regarding Psalms - I'll assume you're referring to 103:17 - where god's righteousness is - in your words - everlasting to everlasting. The problem here is that again the hebrew word is meOlam (from the world) ve ad (and till) Olam (the world) so literally translated 'from the world and till the world' which is a poetic way of saying from the beginning to the end. So once again your definition does not ring true.

Your argument concerning the text of Revelations is also flawed. 1:8 simply says something to the effect of was, is and will be. The word 'was' in no way implies anything extra temporal. If I say 'Bob was there' that in no way means that bob was ALWAYS there - it only means that he was there during the referenced time frame. To indicate that Bob was ALWAYS there FOREVER you would need some sort of modifier to the word was - like 'Bob was always, always, always there in any time or before time'. Of course we never see a verse like that - likely because that's not what the verse was ever intended to mean.

Even worse for your case is that the afterlife, in hebrew, is 'olam ha ba' - the world which comes. Which, taken into the context of 'this world' implies that this world ends - it is finite - and the next world comes - also with a starting point in time. The words used for the world beginning and ending are the exact same ones used to describe the reign of god. Your case is built on sand.

Likewise your reference to Hebrews 1:8 only implies a 'for ever and ever' - which I will agree means into the infinite future. But it speaks nothing about an infinite past.

Now if you happen to have a verse that is more specific or actually translates directly to what your preferred interpretation is then I'd be happy to address that. Failing that, though, you're just left with your opinion of what you'd 'like it to mean' - not what it actually says.

[jimwalton]

You are very right that " 'Olam" means "world"—but only beginning in the 1st century AD. It is never used that way in Hebrew Bible. That meaning ("world") comes into usage in Rabbinic Hebrew and the Aramaic of that time. For evidence of this, see the major lexical set for Hebrew Bible, The Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, Vol. X, 530-45. (This resource is far from evangelical—it is the standard academic work contributed to by Christians of all stripes, as well as Jewish scholars.)

'Olam occurs over 400 times in the Hebrew Bible, and it pertains to duration of time (as opposed to "world"). This same usage is attested in nearly a dozen cognate Semitic languages. This understanding is founded on the great wealth of evidence throughout the Old Testament, and is agreed upon by every Hebrew scholar. Meaning is based on usage.

'Olam pertains to that which is perpetual or enduring, without anticipated or determined beginning or end (depending on the context). It is more like "always or "in perpetuity".

In OT theology, the Israelites never give an indication that God had a beginning or was born (though their neighbors believed that all their gods had beginnings or births). The logical argument is that the Israelite (and biblical) view of God is that he is non-contingent. If he had a beginning, that would generally imply that something existed before him and that something, or whatever brought him into existence, would exist apart from him. Colossians also that insists on this non-contingency (Col. 1:15-20; also Rom. 11:36).

In Psalm 90.2, God is "from everlasting to everlasting." I have already addressed not only the lexical meaning, but also the usage. In addition, contextually the author is contending the preexistence of God before material creation, and contrasting his eternity with the temporality of everything else in vv. 1-2: humanity and the material world.

The implications, then, are that every evidence demands the interpretation that the Israelites considered that YHWH had no beginning and would have no end.

Titus 1.2, a verse I mentioned that you didn't address, specifically says that God was existent and active before the beginning of time: πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων: literally "before eternal times; before eternal ages" (Vincent Vol. 4 p. 332; Quinn p. 55)—before time began to be reckoned by aeons. Jerome Quinn, in the Anchor Bible, says, "One can make a persuasive case that the biblical authors presuppose (if not explicitly affirm) that time began with the rest of creation (Eph. 1.4; Jn. 17.24). This phrase in Titus 1.2, however, refers to the timeless order in which God himself lives in contrast to the countless ages through which his creatures have come and gone. To that timeless order eternal life belongs."

As far as Rev. 1.8, every commentator disagrees with your reductionism.

Jeffrey Niehaus: "God is outside of time. Of course, now with our modern relativistic understanding of the space-time continuum, where time depends on matter and relative velocity, any being who preceded the creation of the physical universe must, by definition, be 'outside of time'."

Christopher Smith: "This describes God's eternal deity."

Kittel: "This declares God's eternity."

And "Alpha and Omega": Robertson: This description of the eternity of God recurs in 21.6 with the added explanation 'the beginning and the end,' and of Christ in 22.13 with the still further explanation 'the first and the last.' See also 1.17 & 2.8."

Keener: "Some Greco-Roman writers called the supreme deity the 'first,' by the OT (Isa. 41.4) and Judaism (Josephus, Philo) had already called Israel's God the "first and the last." They also called God "truth," Hebrew 'emet, spelled 'aleph-mem-tav, which they said were the first, middle, and last letters of the alphabet, showing that God was eternal and ruled over all time."

The weight of evidence is strongly against your position, friend.