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[ESL Faker]

How do we know that the christian god is the true one or a "false" one? For the sake of this post, you can assume that every miracle described in the bible was true.

Now to the main point. Apparently god doesn't like to intervine in our world or to show himself, to keep free will standing or because he doesnt care doing so. But apparently if we follow that hypothesis, then this whole bible stuff seems to be fishy. At one hand, he seems to want remaining hidden as in the present, yet on the other he sent a miracle machine on earth (Jesus).

Can we really accept a ''god'' who reveals himself into the world as a true god? How do we know if he was simply a powerful entity, which liked to be worshiped, and presented those little tricks, called miracles by us for that reason? Could this ''false'' god, laughing at us right now, thinking ''look the ants are worshiping me''?

So even if everything happened and written down in the gospels, and even if people sacrificed their lives for them, how can we know that it was not the doing of a false god? Does faith play any role, if the disciples were tricked?

[jimwalton]

Truth has to correspond to reality, and so at least on this fundamental level, correspondence to reality is what anyone would look for in "proving" any religion. But I'd also say, before we go on, that very little (if anything, when it comes right down to it, depending on your philosophical viewpoints) can be PROVEN. Most of the time we use adductive reasoning: inferring as wise as we can to the most rational conclusion. In both of these areas I think Christianity has strength.

1. Though I know there are many disagreements (and I might as well draw a target on my back for saying this), YHWH is the kind of God we would expect if a God truly exists, and Jesus is the kind of person we would expect to see if God visited the planet. Their beings conform to our highest reasonings of theology and philosophy. God must be all-knowing, all-powerful (without self-contradiction), completely other (transcendent) and yet completely engaged (immanent), loving but just, judging but merciful, maintaining standards and yet full of grace, never-changing but flexible to human situations, communicative, good but can crack a whip when that is called for, eternal, creator, able to work wonders, and yet knows how to play by his own rules at the same time. This is the God we would expect to see, and this is the God we see in the Bible. As far as Jesus, we would expect compassion, power, kindness but doesn't take guff from detractors, fearless, relational, words of authority and truth, knowledge of people and situations, knowledge of the past and future, sacrificial and not self-oriented, and full of patience but not a pushover, meek but not a doormat, assertive, humble, and yet confident. This is exactly what we see. It corresponds to reality.

2. The Bible presents a world that we see. It presents a world where evil is real (as opposed to other religions), and where God lets things take their course but intervenes to keep his plan of redemption on track. It portrays humanity as noble but hopelessly lost, moral but corruptible, both good and evil, torn between self and others, having a conscience, knowing purpose, aware of morality, acknowledging beauty, capable of creativity, but in some ways animalistic and capable of horrific behavior.

3. The Bible portrays "religion" not as a way to earn a place in God's graces, but as God reaching out to us, to love his way into our hearts. To me this corresponds to reality, because if we have to earn our way, we are all in hopeless trouble. But if God would just reach out to us, invite us into the kingdom, pay any sacrifices himself, and make a way for us to find him, come to him, and be redeemed, this makes sense as the only possible way someone could ever find salvation, and this is what the Bible teaches.

4. A true religion must engage the whole of the human nature, not just the mind and not just the emotions. It can't possibly just be about swaying to the music, entranced and brainless, caught up in the rhythms, spells, notions and potions. By the same token, it can't possibly just be about deep philosophy, ironing out theological conundrums, connecting intellectually with the mysteries of the universe and transcending humanity to enter the divine. True religion engages the mind and can fulfill the most intellectual queries, but at the same time enjoy expression, joy, uplifting emotions and the pull of our hearts. True religion is for the scholar and the child, the patrician and the plebeian, the civilized and the barbarian, the slave and the free, the man and the woman, the scientist and the poet. Christianity conforms to these categories.

5. A true religion must make sense out of history. It doesn't function above it or without it, compete against it or necessarily endorse it. Christianity is a historical religion where God works in history and among history, accomplishing his purposes, involved in people's lives, bringing out the redemption of all creation.

6. A true religion must makes sense out of science. It doesn't function above it or without it, compete against it or necessarily endorse it. Christianity teaches principles of cause and effect, beauty, regularity, predictability, beauty, purpose, design, and a world in which science is possible.

7. Christianity teaches purpose, significance in humanity, forgiveness for wrongs, life out of death, hope for the hopeless, redemption, fairness, love, beauty, a God who is there, knowledge, conscience, renewal, and meaning. I think it addresses all of these (#s 1-7) with far greater satisfaction than other religions to such a great extent that I consider Christianity to be true.

8. I would expect the true God to reveal himself. There is no other way we could know him accurately and personally if he didn't show himself to us truthfully. The miracles, as verification that he's super-human, are confirmatory signs.

I haven't even mentioned such things as the beauty, power, and authority of the Bible, the resurrection of Jesus, and the life changes that Christianity brings to so many. Such things are convincing to me, but objects of scorn to others.

I am well aware that in drawing up this list I will draw the ire and the fire of many. Obviously, if everyone agreed with me, all would be Christians. Since all people are not Christians, there is heated disagreement about the things I've said. Granted, understood, and noted. But since the question was, "How do we know the Christian God is the true one?" I hope I have answered the question to your satisfaction.

[Righteous One]

I did not have a Christian upbringing. I became a Christian as an adult.

At one point in my life, I thought I should settle what I believe in.

My line of reasoning included steps such as these (I forget the details):

(1) The universe had a creator
(2) Some number of supernatural beings may exist as well
(3) If supernatural beings exist, there may be a supreme being who had created the others, and who was at the top of a hierarchy
(4) I should aim to be in a right relationship with the Supreme Being;
that's what counts, not the lesser beings who are subordinate to the Supreme one.
(5) Has that Supreme Being / Creator ever interacted with humanity? (in contrast to deism)
(6) He interacted with the ancient Israelites on one or more occasions

Once I got that far, I started to read a copy of the NT that some Christians had given me years before.

I read partway through the gospel of Matthew, and I had a supernatural experience of being born again. In the days following that, I felt a great desire to read the whole Bible, and I read the OT voraciously.

As for the god-figures of other religions (e.g. Zeus), my worldview by now is that they are not just literary figures, and not only characters that people came up with as explanations for natural phenomena.

I believe that there are actual supernatural beings (namely, demons) who are behind the god-figures of other religions. Those demons influenced various human cultures to worship them instead of the Creator.

As for the Allah whom Muslims worship, I figure that a demon or the devil disguised himself as an angel and gave Muhammad some kind of experience, to plant a seed for another religion to develop, that the demons wanted people to follow as an alternative to the people entering into a right relationship with the Creator.

[Moot]

Thank you very much for this reply. Your points all make sense in explaining why one would choose Christianity over any other religion. My main question to you is one I've asked a few on this thread, and that is, why do you think God allows the existence of other religions? As your second point addresses, God lets things take their course but intervenes when necessary. Why is it that God appeared to the Israelites but no one else? Do you think the prophets of other religions are liars or misinformed? If God's first commandment is to take no other Gods before him, I would see the widespread indoctrination of false religions and other Gods as worthy reason to intervene. I understand that Christians believe that God has a plan for everything and everyone, but what could possibly be the purpose of more religions? To test our faith? This seems unfair. Surely people born in Christian countries/families have a head start. Why are some people "called" to the christian church or "born again" but billions of others are not?

[jimwalton]

People have free will, so they can choose what evidences they consider worthy, how much weight they put on them, what they disregard, and what they consider to be the truth. God doesn't interfere with people's free will. A second reason God allows the existence of other religions is because people are usually trained in religion from birth, and it's difficult for them to break away from how they were taught to consider what might the actual truth. Third, people are by nature rebellious, and sometimes rebel against what they know to be true and right just because they want to be that kind of person.

> Why is it that God appeared to the Israelites but no one else?

We don't really know the answer as to why God chose the Jews, but I could make a guess. (1) Their devotion to accurate records is a value, (2) their sustainability as a people group through history is essential, and (3) their place at the center of the ancient world (right on the eastern shoulder of the Mediterranean) made them an excellent choice.

But I could also say that God revealed himself to more than just the Jews. Abraham, when God revealed Himself to him, was Sumerian. Nebuchadnezzar was Babylonian, and God revealed Himself to him. Naaman was Syrian. Rahab was Canaanite. Nineveh during the time of Jonah. Lots of examples of God revealing Himself to people other than Jews.

> Do you think the prophets of other religions are liars or misinformed?

Both. Some do it for power or prestige, some for money. But a 3rd choice is that sometimes they have only partial information.

> If God's first commandment is to take no other Gods before him, I would see the widespread indoctrination of false religions and other Gods as worthy reason to intervene.

And God did intervene. He called a people out from among the nations to which He would reveal Himself, and He gave a written word to express the truth. He sent prophets. The Tower of Babel story (Gn. 11) is primarily the action of God against the misdirection of God being falsely misconstrued. The initiation of the covenant (Gn. 12) is a strategy to reveal Himself accurately to the world (Gn. 12.3).

> what could possibly be the purpose of more religions?

The religions of the world are not God's doing. They are the misguided belief systems of people who have missed the truth and contrived their own truth.