Board index ‹ God

[Robot by Day]

God is not fair by any reasonable definition of the word fair. If people who died before Christ go to hell, God is unfair. If people who died before Christ get a free pass to heaven, God is unfair. If the people who died before Christ go to hell, they never had a chance to be saved and men after did. If the people who died before Christ go to heaven, modern men inherit the heavy burden of the Bible's implausible stories and they do not get a free pass as men before christ did. This is unfair by any reasonable definition of the word fair.

I'll add that "yes", if god is perfect, then he knows what is fair even if we don't. However I'm arguing that we can not know the rational processes or logical sequence that god uses to justify that either scenario is fair. Humans can only think its an unfair scenario or fail to understand why/how its fair in gods Gods mind.

[jimwalton]

You've made several biblical mistakes here that I'd be glad to discuss.

> If people who died before Christ go to hell, God is unfair.

The Bible doesn't teach that the people who died before Christ went to hell. Romans 5.13-14 lets us know that sin is not taken into account when there is no law, so they will be judged according to a different standard than the law. Once the law was given, therefore, people were judged according to the law. After Christ came, people would have been judged according the message and person of Christ. So it's all fair. Each is judged according to the revelation they had been given and not according to something they could have no way of knowing.

> If people who died before Christ get a free pass to heaven...

This is also not true. There is no Bible text that teaches such a thing.

So the whole basis of your argument collapses. The Bible doesn't teach that those who died before Christ get either an automatic train ride to hell or an all-expenses-paid vacation to heaven.

What the Bible teaches is that everyone will be held accountable for the revelation they were given, and each will be judged according to their works (Rev. 20.13; 2 Cor. 5.10). There are degrees of punishment in hell just as there are degrees of reward in heaven, based on how people lived (Mt. 11.22-24; Rev. 20.13; Lk. 10.12; 12.47-48; 20.47). The Bible is clear that God will be fair, and the punishment will fit the crime and the reward will fit the person's good works.

(This is not to claim, however, that we get to heaven if we are good and go to hell is we are bad. That's heresy, even though it's a common belief. The evaluation of one's good and bad works happen as a postlude to one's decision about salvation.)

[Sir Bryan]

Considering the people who died before Christ's resurrection, what law is this that you say that they will be judged by? Their respective cultural laws?

[jimwalton]

People who are under the Law of Moses (viz. Jews) will be judged by the law in the Torah. Those who were not under the Law will be judged by their consciences (Romans 2:15; cf. 1 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Cor. 1:12; Titus 1:15).

[Sir Bryan]

Ok, fair enough. Romans 2:15 certainly suggests that people's consciences bear witness of the law to them. The other three references don't seem to make the same case, but thanks for clarifying anyway.

[jimwalton]

You're right. Those extra verses were only for the sake of comparison.

1 Cor. 4.4: A correlation is made between his conscience and any guilt or innocence. V. 5 then mentions the time when God will judge all people for not only their works, but also their motives, which I thought was pertinent to your question.

2 Cor. 1.12: A correlation between the conscience and behavior. And if our behavior is going to be judged, then we can infer that our consciences, and how we lived by them, will also be subject to judgment.

Titus 1.15-16: These verses tie together the mind, the conscience, and our actions.

[Robot by Day]

So native Americans and Mayans who lived in the western word before the time of christ were judged how exactly? I think I need to know your view on this before I can properly respond.

[jimwalton]

Everyone is judged according to the information they had and what they did with it. I would assume (and it is just an assumption) that they will be judged as to (1) how well they followed their consciences with its built-in sense of right and wrong, and (2) how well they followed the dictates of their religion based on what their consciences told them was true. It would seem to me that it would be unfair to judge them in categories they couldn't possibly know anything about.

[Robot by Day]

Ya I don't think any of its really fair or makes any sense lol. There's always an excuse but, plain old continuity is not very biblical i suppose. I mean thats really supremely unfair still because, those people get to be guided by their consciousness, which is something many atheist do (currently). Instead we also inherit the burden of sorting out whether we should waste our lives on this convoluted book. I have a billion youtube links to videos explaining how wacked out it is too. I wouln't even want to discuss it, in this thread.

[jimwalton]

Of course it's fair that each person gets what they deserve. It strikes me as a little odd that you think fairness is anything other than that. Atheists may be guided by their consciences, but they have much more to work with than that. You have read parts of the Bible, know something about theism, and have even had purposeful conversations with theists (lol), so your standard of assessment will be different from someone who has never heard.

> Instead we also inherit the burden of sorting out whether we should waste our lives on this convoluted book.

Well, this is another conversation altogether. If you think the book is convoluted, you either haven't done your homework, or we need to talk some more!

> I have a billion youtube links to videos explaining how wacked out it is too

Youtube, shoo-tube. Anybody can say anything they want. You certainly don't believe, "Well, if it's on Youtube it just HAS to be true!" If you do believe that, then you and I need to have yet another kind of conversation than this one.