Why is Judas so vilified? Why is the crucifixion so important? How is Jesus human and perfect?
1. I don't understand why Judas or the Jews in the story of Jesus' death are considered bad in any way. First, it was all following the plan that Jesus was meant to go down. How can they be bad if they are the literal instruments of Jesus' forgiveness? Second, if not Judas, someone was going to betray Jesus, so why does Judas receive hate? It seems to me like God chose him (or whoever it would have been) to betray Jesus, and how could he be condemned for being that person who was in a way forced to go down that path? He killed himself afterwords in regret, so clearly he was not acting as himself when he turned
2. Why is so much emphasis placed on Jesus' crucifixion? As far as I'm aware, he didn't suffer any more than anyone else who died by that method. To make my point, we all know about the two other convicts who died right next to him.
3. How can Jesus be considered fully human if he doesn't sin? Sin, according to the bible, is innate to human life. If Jesus could resist all temptation, then can he really be considered as truly connected to humanity?
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Re: Judas and Jesus
by jimwalton » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:33 pm
> Judas
If you kidnap me, and I can tell that your intent is murderous, my knowledge of what you intend to do by your own free will doesn't makes your actions OK. Therefore just because God knew Judas was going to scoundrillously betray Christ doesn't get Judas off the hook.
In the first Star Wars movie (Episode IV), Obi Wan Kenobi lets Darth Vader strike him down because he knows that he will be more powerful in death than in life. That doesn't mean DV is a good guy. it just means that Obi Wan submitted to his brutality to accomplish Obi Wan's goals. So also Jesus submitted to the betrayal of Judas and the brutality of crucifixion to accomplish his own goals. But that doesn't excuse the horrific nature of the crimes against him.
> How can they be bad if they are the literal instruments of Jesus' forgiveness?
It depends what you mean by "instruments." If you are implying that God made them do it, that's just a wrong understanding. If you are implying that God knew they were sinful, immoral, violent people and decided to submit to their freely-chosen actions to accomplish his purposes, that's more accurate.
> Second, if not Judas, someone was going to betray Jesus, so why does Judas receive hate?
Because Judas acted willfully and maliciously. He was not forced down that path. He made his own destructive choices, and therefore we can see how wrong he was to do what he did.
> He killed himself afterwords in regret, so clearly he was not acting as himself when he turned
It's not so clear. The motives and feelings of Judas are mixed, as is usually the case with criminals.
I don't know how old you are, and if you remember back to 1998. There was a guy called the Unabomber (Ted Kaczynski) who was killing people. Ted's brother, David, is the one who turned him in. He thought the Feds would spare his brother's life. He was wrong. In a Newsweek article, David was feeling both remorseful and bitter about what had happened. He had sought assurances that the gov't would reward his cooperation by sparing his brother's life. The Feds never promised him anything, but David thought they were sympathetic. Once they had their hands on Ted, however, all "sympathy" was over. David wanted the killing stopped, and that's why he turned his brother, Ted, in. But the last person he wanted to see dead was his brother. "How could they do this to me?" David sobbed to his lawyer.
Mere remorse doesn't really accomplish anything unless it leads to a change of mind and life. We see this in Peter after his denial—his remorse led him back to Christ. Judas's remorse only led him to suicide. Judas, it says in Matt. 27.4, was aware he had sinned. He confesses to the Sanhedrin (who couldn't give a rip), but never confesses to God. It's a big difference. We can't just assume that he's "not acting as himself when he turned." Judas's motives are never clearly explained to us, so we dare not build a case of his general innocence on our own assumptions.
> Why is so much emphasis placed on Jesus' crucifixion? As far as I'm aware, he didn't suffer any more than anyone else who died by that method.
What's different about Jesus's crucifixion is that he was totally innocent.
> How can Jesus be considered fully human if he doesn't sin? Sin, according to the bible, is innate to human life.
Sin is not necessary to humanity. I don't think anyone would dare to say, "If you don't cheat on a test sometime when you're a student, then you're not really human." Or, "If you never steal anything ever, you're not human." It's absurd. Sin is not what defines us, it's what plagues us. Sin, according to the Bible, isn't innate of human life at all, but was the result of a tragic choice.
If you kidnap me, and I can tell that your intent is murderous, my knowledge of what you intend to do by your own free will doesn't makes your actions OK. Therefore just because God knew Judas was going to scoundrillously betray Christ doesn't get Judas off the hook.
In the first Star Wars movie (Episode IV), Obi Wan Kenobi lets Darth Vader strike him down because he knows that he will be more powerful in death than in life. That doesn't mean DV is a good guy. it just means that Obi Wan submitted to his brutality to accomplish Obi Wan's goals. So also Jesus submitted to the betrayal of Judas and the brutality of crucifixion to accomplish his own goals. But that doesn't excuse the horrific nature of the crimes against him.
> How can they be bad if they are the literal instruments of Jesus' forgiveness?
It depends what you mean by "instruments." If you are implying that God made them do it, that's just a wrong understanding. If you are implying that God knew they were sinful, immoral, violent people and decided to submit to their freely-chosen actions to accomplish his purposes, that's more accurate.
> Second, if not Judas, someone was going to betray Jesus, so why does Judas receive hate?
Because Judas acted willfully and maliciously. He was not forced down that path. He made his own destructive choices, and therefore we can see how wrong he was to do what he did.
> He killed himself afterwords in regret, so clearly he was not acting as himself when he turned
It's not so clear. The motives and feelings of Judas are mixed, as is usually the case with criminals.
I don't know how old you are, and if you remember back to 1998. There was a guy called the Unabomber (Ted Kaczynski) who was killing people. Ted's brother, David, is the one who turned him in. He thought the Feds would spare his brother's life. He was wrong. In a Newsweek article, David was feeling both remorseful and bitter about what had happened. He had sought assurances that the gov't would reward his cooperation by sparing his brother's life. The Feds never promised him anything, but David thought they were sympathetic. Once they had their hands on Ted, however, all "sympathy" was over. David wanted the killing stopped, and that's why he turned his brother, Ted, in. But the last person he wanted to see dead was his brother. "How could they do this to me?" David sobbed to his lawyer.
Mere remorse doesn't really accomplish anything unless it leads to a change of mind and life. We see this in Peter after his denial—his remorse led him back to Christ. Judas's remorse only led him to suicide. Judas, it says in Matt. 27.4, was aware he had sinned. He confesses to the Sanhedrin (who couldn't give a rip), but never confesses to God. It's a big difference. We can't just assume that he's "not acting as himself when he turned." Judas's motives are never clearly explained to us, so we dare not build a case of his general innocence on our own assumptions.
> Why is so much emphasis placed on Jesus' crucifixion? As far as I'm aware, he didn't suffer any more than anyone else who died by that method.
What's different about Jesus's crucifixion is that he was totally innocent.
> How can Jesus be considered fully human if he doesn't sin? Sin, according to the bible, is innate to human life.
Sin is not necessary to humanity. I don't think anyone would dare to say, "If you don't cheat on a test sometime when you're a student, then you're not really human." Or, "If you never steal anything ever, you're not human." It's absurd. Sin is not what defines us, it's what plagues us. Sin, according to the Bible, isn't innate of human life at all, but was the result of a tragic choice.
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Re: Judas and Jesus
by Noffy » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:27 am
> What's different about Jesus's crucifixion is that he was totally innocent.
To add on to this, Jesus was also willing. I'm sure there was at least one of two innocent persons crucified during the Roman Empire, at least by accident.
Jesus was not only innocent, but willing. He really could have called a fleet of angels to rescue Himself, but He willingly stayed to die a death for crimes He didn't commit.
To add on to this, Jesus was also willing. I'm sure there was at least one of two innocent persons crucified during the Roman Empire, at least by accident.
Jesus was not only innocent, but willing. He really could have called a fleet of angels to rescue Himself, but He willingly stayed to die a death for crimes He didn't commit.
Last bumped by Anonymous on Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:27 am.
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