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Re: Questions about sin and suffering

Postby Common Language » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:30 am

> Genesis 1-2 is a temple text

Right away, we should be cautious about meshing the two chapters together as "one" text. The chapters are infamously understood to have been at some degree of independence from one another (and indeed in tension) at several points.

In any case, one of the reasons Genesis 1 is ascribed to the "Priestly" source is precisely because of some of the lexical and conceptual connections with the temple cult, etc. But in terms of standard scholarly analysis, Genesis 2:4 typically marks the beginning of a separate source. Most notably, the seven-day structure doesn't appear at all here.

> The terms used in Gn. 2.15 ("work" and "care for") are priestly terms, not agricultural ones.

Whoa, okay, I don't know where you're getting your information from, but that's a straight-up misrepresentation. עָבַד and שָׁמַר are both very common verbs in the Hebrew Bible. The latter word is so general that I've not sure if we can say anything about it at all, other than it denotes keeping. (That it's a reference to the priestly cult in particular is probably no more plausible than Gunkel's suggestion that the mandate of 2:15 was to guard the garden specifically from demonic incursion.)

Together with the former word, though, Genesis 2:15 almost certainly just suggests maintenance (which, again, is super general) and/or, more specifically, cultivation. The latter is certainly the sense we get from עָבַד's use in Genesis 2:5; 3:23; 4:2, 12, too; and we find the exact same phrase from Genesis 2:5; 3:23, etc. in 1 Chronicles 27:26 as well.

> Humanity was not the slave of the gods (as in other contemporaneous cultures), but instead in the Bible priests and priestesses, to engage with God in relationship, to manage sacred space, and to do what was necessary to maintain God's presence among the people

It shouldn't escape notice that עָבַד in Gen. 2:15 is literally the verb for "serve" or to be a slave. Now, the exact background of Adam maintaining God's garden is unclear. It's worth noting, though, that in some of the closest ancient Near Eastern parallels to this, the creation of humans is not just for temple service, but for a broader development of culture, and indeed agriculture. If Genesis 2:15 is a kind of de-mythologized version of this, it's de-mythologized it so much that it's hard to tell what exactly the purpose of this was at all. But I still think that, going by what we have, it's very hard to say that this maintenance was even intended to be in service to God at all.

To add to that, the perspective of Genesis 2-3 itself is that Adam and Eve are clearly alone in the garden, so they can't at this juncture "maintain God's presence among the people" or anything like that.

To sum up, it's probably safest to say that the mandate in Gen. 2:15 wasn't for any particular greater purpose at all. If anything, the impetus behind this tradition was probably just naively literal: that if humans were going to live in a garden, they'd probably need to do some upkeep. It may simply preempt the idea — having already been hinted at in Gen. 2:5, and to be developed in 3:19 and 3:23 — that agriculture is a standard part of human existence; though it may also suggest easier labor, which was soon to become more difficult. (See also Genesis 4:2, 12 here. In terms of major commentators, Hamilton and [mostly] Westermann don't really draw any broader conclusions from Genesis 2:15, either.)

So to sum up what you said in response to what I wrote about Genesis 2:8, at some point it seems you agree that God doesn't reside primarily in the garden proper, but rather that the garden is adjacent to God's real home/sanctuary, in Eden. But at other points you seemed to suggest that the garden is the locus of God's presence, though.

Honestly, you still seem to be so wrapped up in seeing the narrative through a lens of (quite specific) symbolism that you're actually failing to read the narrative as it is — missing the trees for the forest in a sense. But we should always make sure the finer details of narratives help us construct and confirm the larger contextual lens through which we might see the narrative, before just insisting that it simply must be seen through such a lens, details be damned.

As for specifics in your response about Genesis 2:8:

I'm open to — though not sold on — the idea that God might have been thought to live in Eden somehow; though I'm still not sold on his presence being concentrated in the garden. Again, as I suggested, I'm more inclined toward the view that God "visits" the garden, so to speak. More on that later; but for now, here are a few major commentators on Genesis 2:8:

Westermann writes:

The garden God planted to provide for his people has nothing to do with a garden of God (or of the gods) or with what is popularly called paradise. As Vriezen has remarked there can be no question of a garden of God because this garden was planted by God only after the creation of human beings and is meant for them alone.


Hamilton notes the presence at various places in the Hebrew Bible of the phrases/concepts of the "garden of Yahweh" (Gen. 13:10; Isa. 51:3) and "garden of God" (Ezek. 28:13; 31:9); but he also suggests

The writer of Gen. 2 does not use any such phrase, perhaps to refrain from giving the impression that this garden is where God lives. He is its planter, but not its occupant.

Finally, Gunkel proposes that a pre-written stage, oases — "outward-sprouting wildernesses in the midst of infertile land" — were believed by Israelites to be areas where the spirit of God lived, but that "[b]ecause of an aversion to the mythological, this concept is no longer explicitly stated in [Genesis] 2, but it is still assumed in 3:8, where God strolls in the garden."

Adam is placed in the garden which God plants; but nothing in Genesis 2 indicates that this was done specifically so that he could be "brought into God's presence" or anything.

And on that note, interestingly, in his essay "The Story Of Paradise In The Light Of Mesopotamian Culture And Literature," A. Van Der Kooij takes a closer look at the neglected detail (Gen. 2:8, 15) of God's taking Adam and placing him in the Garden — "in the east" — within its broader ANE context. He compares this to the translation of Utnapishtim in Gilgamesh, Ziusudra in Sumerian sources, and even makes the connection to the Greek blessed/fortunate isles. But one thing to note here is that it's not at all clear that these privileged persons were brought (in)to the home/presence of the gods. Rather, these were special locations for humans to reside on their own.

(Also interestingly, with reference to Stordalen's Echoes of Eden and Dietrich's "Das biblische Paradies und der babylonische Tempelgarte," Van Der Kooij discusses three different types of gardens that were potentially the closest background for the garden of Eden: royal gardens, cultic/Temple gardens, and "mythic" gardens, like the Jewel Garden in Gilgamesh.)

I'm already running out of space, so to cut it short, I think many scholars would agree that there's little evidence — and in fact some negative evidence — to suggest that "[t]he garden next to Eden was not where humans lived, but . . . the place of reception of the humans into fellowship with God in God's own dwelling place," as you said. Certainly the existence of (horti)culture and the motif of nourishment suggests a longer stay for Adam and Eve in the garden.

I won't really say anything about Genesis 2:18, for one because I didn't put a whole lot of weight on that particular objection to begin with, but also because I don't think your response really contributed to your larger argument either. Again though, in Gen. 2:18ff., it looks like Adam was simply being prepared for mundane aspects of human life here, and not for entry into God's presence or anything like that.

As for 3:8,

> This is an anthropomorphism. God doesn't actually (physically) WALK anywhere.

was a strange response — to an argument I didn't make. Not only did I myself mention the "anthropomorphism in 3:7" (I meant 3:8), but my argument here was over whether God resided in the garden permanently or (visited) occasionally, not about whether God was corporeal or not.

I agree that the "wind/breeze of the day" is a bit unusual — although not as much as some make it out to be — though this still seems to suggest that God had a particular time of day when he'd stroll through the garden. This may not only be similar to, say, a king simply visiting a garden adjoining the palace, but could also suggest that (being in) God's presence wasn't really as profound as it may seem.

As for

> The expulsion from the Garden, however, does have everything to do with God's presence. The Fall is defined by the fact that Adam and Eve acquired wisdom illegitimately and tried to take God’s role for themselves rather than eventually joining God in his role as they were taught wisdom...

I'm very quickly running out of space, so I'll try to respond as succinctly as possible.

Adam and Eve's acquisition of wisdom wasn't some usurping of or assault on divine prerogatives, but again just rote etiology — here portrayed as a kind of underdog acquisition; but again, etiologically, an acquisition of what humans have always had (which also diminishes the ethical coloring of its "sinfulness," etc.). It's undeniably parallel to the Babel narrative in this regard, as I've discussed at length here.
Common Language
 

Re: Questions about sin and suffering

Postby jimwalton » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:39 am

> Right away, we should be cautious about meshing the two chapters together as "one" text. The chapters are infamously understood to have been at some degree of independence from one another (and indeed in tension) at several points.

Chapter 2 is not talking about day 6, or we have a large sequence problem. We also have a logistics problem, because Adam can’t name all the animals in a 24-hour day.

What is the relationship between what comes before the *toledoth* literary introduction (Gn. 2.4) and what comes after? This chapter is not *synoptic* (doubling back to explain what came before, which in Genesis such strategy is *always* concerning brothers); instead, it’s *sequel*. That means chapter 2 doesn’t have to do with Day 6, but with a later time period, and that chapter 1 is not talking about Adam and Eve. So you're right that they are somewhat independent from each other, but only somewhat. Chapter 2 is sequential, the first *toledoth* of Genesis, telling us that which is *generated* by the heavens and the Earth: the provision of God for the people He created and the plan of God in history. As such, chapter 2 is a continuation of the story of God's presence with His people and the plan He executes to maintain His presence with them—still part of the Temple Text.

> I don't know where you're getting your information from, but that's a straight-up misrepresentation. עָבַד and שָׁמַר are both very common verbs in the Hebrew Bible. The latter word is so general that I've not sure if we can say anything about it at all, other than it denotes keeping.

The two terms ("work" לְעָבְדָהּ and "care for" וּלְשָׁמְרָהּ) are most frequently used in priestly service to God (for instance, Num. 3.8) rather than descriptions of agricultural tasks. So is he working the round, or is this sacred service? It is most likely that the tasks giving to Adam are of a priestly nature, that is, caring for sacred space. The primary role of priests was to perform whatever duties were necessary to preserve the sanctity of God's temple. In ancient thinking, caring for sacred space was a way of upholding creation. By preserving order, chaos was held at bay. What had been achieved at the beginning must be maintained. He is keeping the garden not just for his own sake, but as a kind of preservation; he is primarily keeping the garden for the Master. What is happening here is much more than landscaping or even priestly duties. He was participating with God in the ongoing task of sustaining the equilibrium God had established in the cosmos. He is ruling and subduing. He is caring for sacred space. In Israel people also believed that they had been created to serve God. The difference was that they saw humanity as having been given a priestly role in sacred space rather than as slave labor to meet the needs of deity.

While the first verb ('abad) is a common agricultural term, the second verb, shamar, does not fit so easily into the category of agricultural work. It is used regularly in the Pentateuch to refer to Levitical responsibility for guarding sacred space. We also notice that ‘abad is used throughout the Pentateuch to refer to priestly service in sacred space (note particularly Num. 8:15). Both verbs are used together in reference to caring for sacred space in Numbers 3:8-9.

> It shouldn't escape notice that עָבַד in Gen. 2:15 is literally the verb for "serve" or to be a slave.

Correct, but their cultural lines between servanthood and slavery were much less defined than ours are in modern times.

> Now, the exact background of Adam maintaining God's garden is unclear.

Ancient Near Eastern theology was universally, excluding Israel, that humanity was created to be the slaves of the gods, to feed them and provide for them (the Great Symbiosis: humans care for the gods, and the gods care for the humans). This perspective had no place in Israelite theology. YHWH had no needs and neither required nor created nor commanded the Israelites to be His slaves. Instead, the existed in a suzerain/vassal relationship, bound by the covenant. Here humanity, in contrast to ANE thought, are given a priestly role in sacred space rather than as slave labor to meet the needs of deity.

> the perspective of Genesis 2-3 itself is that Adam and Eve are clearly alone in the garden, so they can't at this juncture "maintain God's presence among the people" or anything like that.

Adam & Eve are the focus of the narrative, but not necessarily alone, let alone "clearly alone." Gn. 2.15 indicates that God "took" the man and placed him in the garden. Took him from where? There is an interesting parallel in the Gilgamesh Epic, where Uta-napisti is "taken" from among the population and placed in an Eden kind of setting. He doesn't live with the gods, but he's not where he was among other humans either. Gn. 2.15 could suggest that Adam is being removed from the everyday realm of human existence and placed in a specially prepared place.

> Adam and Eve's acquisition of wisdom wasn't some usurping of or assault on divine prerogatives, but again just rote etiology — here portrayed as a kind of underdog acquisition; but again, etiologically, an acquisition of what humans have always had (which also diminishes the ethical coloring of its "sinfulness," etc.). It's undeniably parallel to the Babel narrative in this regard, as I've discussed at length here.

Then we disagree. A predominant paradigm and overriding worldview of the ancient world was order, non-order, and disorder. Wisdom was the prerogative of the deities, as was bringing functional order. The gods were always perceived as carving order out of disorder and non-order. Almost all of life was perceived this way, even creation. Something was considered to be created when it had a function (the wilderness and the seas were not considered part of creation because they had no orderly function). Genesis 1 is an account of God bringing order out of non-order ("formless and void"), and ordering it to function as his Temple. In Genesis 2 we still see God bringing order (esp. v.5ff.), giving the man and woman the role of priest and priestess in His Temple, exercising their role as co-regents (from Gn. 1.26-28) with God in ruling the Earth and subbing it.

Are you familiar with the writings and perspective of Dr. John Walton on Gn. 1-2?
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Re: Questions about sin and suffering

Postby Yummy Yummy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:41 am

>>could God not have made them go away without the crucifixion?
> No. Real things demand real solutions. if you have cancer, it does no good to put a bandaid on your arm. That's not the right or real solution. If you are a slavery of sin and destined for death, the only real or right solution is to free you from slavery and defeat death. And there's only one way that can be accomplished: by dying and coming back to life on your own.

Are you saying that this could not have been accomplished if, instead of crucifixion, Jesus was sodomized and stabbed until he bled to death? Why is crucifixion the only way an omnipotent being could have accomplished this objective?

> The greatest problem in life is that we are separated from God (and his life and love). We are enslaved by what the Bible calls sin: our alienation from God and our nature that perpetuates the alienation. That's what we need fixed (to be healed). It's like a disease, and it needs medicine and surgery, or a miracle. Nothing else will deal with the disease. That's what Jesus's death does for us: it heals us. This is the goal of life: to be freed from sin and to be in relationship with God. And it's not just a healing, but a chance to start over, almost like being re-created or re-born. A new life. The crucifixion was the only path the deal with the source problem: sin that results in death.

Did it change human behavior in any way? Like, are we less sinful or equally as sinful as we were before Jesus's crucifixion?
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Re: Questions about sin and suffering

Postby jimwalton » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:33 am

> Are you saying that this could not have been accomplished if, instead of crucifixion, Jesus was sodomized and stabbed until he bled to death? Why is crucifixion the only way an omnipotent being could have accomplished this objective?

Oh, good question. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Death is what was necessary, not a particular kind of death. Something like crucifixion fits the bill well because crucifixion was arguably the most horrific kind of death ever devised. If Jesus wanted to show that he shared in the sufferings of humanity, the crucifixion was an apt picture and symbolically striking. The crucifixion was in itself a parable of what was being accomplished: bearing the sins of the world, sharing the sufferings of all humanity, and paying the greatest price.

> Did it change human behavior in any way? Like, are we less sinful or equally as sinful as we were before Jesus's crucifixion?

Oh, yes. Absolutely. Human behavior is radically changed by Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection. I have heard countless stories and personally known numerous people whose lives were profoundly changed: belligerent people calmed down, alcoholics reformed, violent people became peaceful, etc. Definitely less sinful than before Jesus's crucifixion.


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