Board index ‹ The Problem of Evil and Suffering

[Tinkerbell]

Healing miracles are often cited as evidence for the truth of Christianity. It is often stated that miraculous healings happen around the world all the time in Jesus' name. Yet when you go on to YouTube and search for "Healing Miracle" the number and quality returned doesn't bear this out.

We live in an age where millions of people have pocket video recorders with them at all times. If miracles were happening, you would expect the people involved to be rushing to share these events with the world. You would expect some decent evidence. You might even expect some doctor's testimony.

The top result at the moment is some old video about Ronald Coyne, who could see through his eye socket. I mean if that was true it would defy medicine and would be relatively easy for scientists to test and work out how he was able to do that, if it were supernatural or not.

For me I'd expect to see hundreds of modern videos, possibly outside the church setting (why not in hospitals?)—and not just cessation of pain or leg lengthening—but people who have been blind their whole life, or people who have never walked, or people who have body parts grow back on camera.

I'm not saying healing miracles don't happen, perhaps I'm searching in the wrong places. I'd love to see some decent videos, preferably with some documentation. Or I'd like an explanation why there are so few on YouTube.

There are 1 billion smart phones in the world with video capability (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/9616 ... llion.html)

100 hours worth of video is uploaded to YouTube every minute (http://www.youtube.com/yt/press/statistics.html)

[jimwalton]

My comments are that if you read the Old Testament, there are only maybe 4 healings in the entire 2000 + years of time that it covers:

Naaman, from leprosy, in 2 Ki. 5
The kid of the woman Elijah was staying with (1 Ki. 17.17-24)
The son of the Shunnamite woman (2 Ki. 4)
Hezekiah in 2 Chr. 32

That's about it. In the NT things don't get a whole lot brighter. Of course there are hundreds or thousands at the hands of Jesus, but other than that, healings are precious few: Acts 3.7; 5.16; 20.9-10, and a few others, but not many.

Ultimately I'd say the Biblical record is scant both on the occurrences of healings and on the promise of healing. There is no particular expectation that a lot, or many, or even any, will necessarily be healed. While there are stories of healings happening now, some of which could be credible, it's not an expectation. Of course, anybody who knows someone who is suffering can pray for that person and hope for a healing, but I think it would be safe to say that God is not particularly in the business of healing. God is in the business of saving people from sin and raising people to new life in Christ. Healing can often be more of a distraction than a true sign. During the ministry of Jesus, it was a sign of his deity. Nowadays, obviously that's not what a healing would be all about. There's even a place in 1 Cor. 13.8 that some people interpret to mean that miraculous healings would basically cease until the end times.

[Willie Henders]

> Of course, anybody who knows someone who is suffering can pray for that person and hope for a healing, but I think it would be safe to say that God is not particularly in the business of healing.

Then why is God given the credit almost every time someone unexpectedly recovers?

[jimwalton]

There are a few reasons for that. First I would say that people who have have had a relationship with God for a while learn what he is like, what he does, and how he does things. Just as a trained hunter (over a novice) is better able to spot game in the woods, and just as a trained Secret Service agent is better able to see threats to the president (things that you and I might easily miss), a mature Christian is better able to see the hand of God at work around him or her.

Secondly, the Bible is quite clear that a lot of the work that God does is through human agency, and just as food keeps us healthy, so also medicine and surgery help our bodies to heal. Just because there is a natural explanation doesn't also mean that God, therefore, is not at work. He could easily be at work where someone might claim, Duh, it was the MEDICINE! When I buy lunch for a homeless person, or give a friend money to help them over a bad patch, I could easily be an answer to prayer for that person.

[Willie Henders]

If you look at my first post in this thread, I specified an unexpected recovery. Have you ever heard a story about someone who had a tumor magically disappear with no medical explanation? Did you also hear about anyone thanking God for this miracle and saying it was an aswered prayer?

[jimwalton]

Yes, I certainly have. I've been eyewitness to such things (not tumors, but other desperate medical conditions). I would say two things: People thank God even when the recovery follows a normal and expected trajectory. Christians believe God is at work even in the normal parts of life. And secondly, when it's unpacked and "no medical explanation," Christians see the hand of God there.

When I said that God is not particularly in the business of healing, that is not to claim He never is. It is to claim that we have no particular right to demand or expect that God will act in any particular situation.

[Willie Henders]

> When I said that God is not particularly in the business of healing, that is not to claim He never is. It is to claim that we have no particular right to demand or expect that God will act in any particular situation.

There are a few scriptures about rain falling on the just and unjust, etc., but there are just as many if not more indicating that God (at least sometimes) blesses the righteous and curses the unrighteous here on earth. There are also many examples in scripture of the association between righteousness and prosperity.

Why is it wrong to attempt to find a pattern in order to better understand the criteria (if any) for receiving a blessing from God. Would this not be a useful gauge to help determine if your idea of righteousness is in line with God's idea of righteousness?

[jimwalton]

Great questions! Thank you so much. I love talking to you.

1. You're right: There are scriptures that talk about rain falling on the just and the unjust. They clearly give the idea that the righteous don't prosper particularly any more than the wicked, but "life" happens to us all.

2. There are some scriptures that talk about God blessing the righteous. There aren't too many about God cursing the unrighteous here on earth.

3. Instead, what we often hear in the Bible is complaints about, "Hey, how come the wicked prosper and the righteous people are the oppressed ones?" Hab. 1.2-4; Job 19.7; Ps. 13.1-2, etc.

> Why is it wrong to attempt to find a pattern in order to better understand the criteria (if any) for receiving a blessing from God.

Because that's not the way life and God work. There is no discernible pattern. God isn't tame. It's what the book of Job is about. The book addresses the question: Can we count on the pattern that God rewards the righteous and "curses" the unrighteous here on the earth? The conclusion of the book is that's not how it works, and it can't reliably work that way. Let me put it this way: If God consistently rewards the righteous and curses the unrighteous (known as the retribution principle), then people would start being righteous just to get the blessings of it. They would be acting with the wrong motives, which would mean they weren't really righteous, but just trying to get something (What's in it for me?). GONG! That ain't gonna work. And if that's what happening, then we could call into question the motives and behavior of ANY righteous person, because there would ALWAYS be the possibility that they are righteous for selfish reasons, which means they aren't righteous.

But if the righteous get screwed in life, that doesn't seem right either. How come the wicked prosper? What makes THAT fair?

The the retribution principle perspective about life just has to be flushed. It's no good, even in the best-case scenarios. But then what patterns are there? There aren't, and that's the way it has to be. All three choices can be true in any given scenario: the rain falls on everybody, we all get sunshine and we all get rain, sometimes the righteous feel as if they've been rewarded with prosperity, but that's not a Scriptural principle. God is free, however, to be generous as he wishes. But sometimes it seems like the wicked are the rich and powerful ones, and the good people get oppressed (ah, Billy Joel: Only the good die young). Does this happen? Sure does. Not reliably, though.

What we need is a completely different mindset and perspective, Job lets us know. We need to transform the way we think about God's work in the world and our responses in time of suffering.

[Willie Henders]

Psalms 1:1-3; Psalms 112:1-3; 2nd Corinthians 9:10-11; Psalms 25:12-13; Psalms 84:11-12.

These scriptures express God’s promise of success and prosperity to His faithful followers but should we construe that promise to apply to every righteous person?

Psalms 128:1-3; Ecclesiastes 3:13: Scripture reveals that success and prosperity come from God as opposed to the accomplishments of man.

Deuteronomy 8:18; Ecclesiastes 5:18-19; Deuteronomy 28:8: Scripture depicts success and prosperity as blessings reserved for the righteous as a reward for obeying God’s commandments.

Job 36:11 states "if they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge." I think the book of Job actually emphasises the concept that righteousness is expected to equal prosperity, which is why it was such a tremendous test for Job.

Do you believe the above scriptures to be true, and divinely inspired, and included into the Bible for some purpose?

Your point about acting righteous in order to get blessings is unreasonable, because God judges the heart. The same statement could be made that simply attending church will get you into heaven because it may fool God into thinking you're saved.

In order to observe a pattern it is not necessary for something to work a certain way every single time. We have observed that smoking increases a person's likelihood of developing cancer. That does not mean that everyone who gets cancer smokes. And it does not mean that everyone who smokes get cancer. We just see a pattern of this particular act increasing the probability of this particular result.

[jimwalton]

The Scriptures you quoted (kudos on all the research, btw) are proverbial in character, not guaranteed promises. They speak of the laudable nature of a godly character, and how God looks on godly behavior with favor. For instance, Ps. 1.3 speaks of productivity and health and fulfillment. The godly man's life will flow the richness of God in him, regardless of beneficial or trying circumstances. The root of the word "prospers," says the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Vol. 2 p. 766): "The root of this word means to accomplish satisfactorily what is intended. Real prosperity results from the work of God in the life of one who seeks God with all his heart. 2 Chr. 26.5 says, 'As long as [Uzzah] sought YHWH, God made him prosper.' Joseph is called a prosperous man, for YHWH turned all of his misfortunes into benefit for Jacob's sons (Gn. 39.2-3, 23). The devout man earnestly petitions God to grant him prosperity (success) in his work (Ps. 118.25).
"God expresses his purposes through his word. Therefore his Word will not prove empty, but it will prosper in its fulfillment (Isa. 55.11). God accomplishes salvation for man through the suffering of his obedient servant (Isa. 53.10): 'The will of YHWH shall prosper in his hand.' "

In other words, the verse is not necessarily speaking about material prosperity, but divine blessing. This is not a promise. God is not guaranteeing you the 'Midas Touch,' and whatever you do will be wildly successful and prosperous for you. This is written in the form of a proverb. In general, all other things being equal (which they're not), those who are righteous will be more productive, healthy, growing, and prosperous.

All of these verses are that way.

As far as Job, I've been studying Job deeply for about a year now. The mistake of the friends is to assume as you are saying, that the concept of righteousness is to equal prosperity. But Job was refuting their argument, because the theology was fallacious. Job was not suffering for wrong he had done, nor do we get rewarded with prosperity and health in this life for righteousness. The question of Job 1.9 is key, and centers on Job's motivation for serving God and suggests that God's treatment of the righteous is the incentive for righteous conduct. This is what the book is sorting out, and the conclusion is that the retribution principle is an invalid way of assessing life and God's work in the world.

> Do you believe the above scriptures to be true, and divinely inspired, and included into the Bible for some purpose?

Absolutely, but the "health and wealth" gospel is a crock, and the retribution principle is not how things work.

Not only does it not work every single time, but there is no predictable pattern of cause and effect (the retribution principle) to observe. That's not the way God works in the world.