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Re: Zoroaster should be an old testament prophet and is part

Postby Excited Guy » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:31 pm

> There's nothing in science that tells us miracles are impossible.

there has been an immense amount of investigation of people that claimed magical powers, and no one has ever demonstrated any evidence that they can do magic, or demonstrated any mechanism by which magic could be worked. no one has to prove it impossible; given that it has never been demonstrated to even exist, the only rational conclusion is to reject the claim that it does.

> And I would never agree that the miracles prove those parts of the Bible to be ahistorical.
> if you can't see clear distinctions between fictional magic and divine miracles

Like I said, if you think taking magic serious as being historically accurate, then i see no point in having a conversation about history. that your religious beliefs bias you towards making a distinction without a difference here doesnt change that, and that you want to say there's a difference doesn't make it so. Enjoy Narnia.
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Re: Zoroaster should be an old testament prophet and is part

Postby jimwalton » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:36 pm

> there has been an immense amount of investigation of people that claimed magical powers, and no one has ever demonstrated any evidence that they can do magic, or demonstrated any mechanism by which magic could be worked.

Actually, I would like to see this research. Please point me to it, since I take it that you have done the primary research, investigated the matter thoroughly yourself, and researched the publications on miracles. I'm being honest: I would like to see it. I'm going to assume at this point that you're not just blowing it out your ear based on some kind of assumption, but instead that you have thoroughly investigated the matter.

There is a well-researched 2-volume set by Dr. Craig Keener on miracles (https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Credibility-New-Testament-Accounts/dp/0801039525/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=keener+miracles&qid=1554744818&s=gateway&sr=8-1). He has done the primary research and in two volumes concludes that the accounts have validity. Have you researched these works as well (to examine the counter-claims as thoroughly as you have examined those that conform to your presuppositions)?

In other words, it has been substantiated that not only are miracles possible, but they are real. But as I said, I would be pleased to see your research on the matter. The evidence stands in support of the reality of miracles, not against them. Therefore the only rational conclusion is to admit that they really happen.
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Re: Zoroaster should be an old testament prophet and is part

Postby Conga » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:03 pm

> Christianity and Mithraism have little in common.

Wine and bread ceremony existed in pagan times. The perverted translation of "drink wine" in the original is "drink juice". Christianity is not the source of Mithraism, just from this single example.

> You are creating your own revisionist history to conform to your presuppositions. The reality is that Christianity has always been trinitarian. They have never been polytheist.

Mary mother of Jesus had rested her soul, so did the Apostles. From letters we can see that Apostles were debating with people around them that Jesus wasn't son of god.

If Apostles were monotheist then what was Jesus doing?

> (it was only when a corrupt Roman Catholic Church became politically entangled from about 1000-1500 that that branch of the Church was corrupt and legalized atrocities. We repudiate their corruption.)

We are exchanging messages under the title of Zoroastrianism influence. The Indian centre of cultures are revered in two subjects in Quran:

* Haruti/Hanuman a prince in Babylon, Arioch in Torah
* The fig tree where Buddha received the revelation and most probably the "Jacob's ladder" kind of space travel

We know that India affected China and Europe through migrations and exchanges, the numerical system is Indian and as we have seen in 19th and 20th century European culture has deep roots in India.

So, Greeks accoridng to some were Persian and they have carried Buddhism belief to west. Zoroastrians even though their Gatha is a monotheistic Book and God confirms in Quran too, they have added Avesta and Indian origin stories such as Christ's birth story of 3 kings into their religious practice.

Messiah's second coming exists in Buddhism, hence in Hinduism, also demigods (not gods) of Hinduism matches in some extent with creation story as we see in God's Books.

What we see in Quran, a motto for life, always look ahead or in economical way, let bygones be bygones. A proper believer shouldn't meddle with people's past because everybody has right to live under God's Grace by not poked about others mishaps.

Jesus was a key figure according to Quran, because God promised a man with miracles would come then the last Book would be delivered. Jesus was the reminder that End of Times is coming, but he doesn't know when it will come either.

God doesn't allow to His believers to rule over all, His rulebook will rule only. The god as a word means the entity which is followed without questioning.
Conga
 

Re: Zoroaster should be an old testament prophet and is part

Postby jimwalton » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:09 pm

> Christianity is not the source of Mithraism, just from this single example.

And neither is Mithraism the source of Christianity ("Christians start with Mithraism"). While the two faith systems overlap in a few categories, similarity doesn't mean derivation, and the differences between them are so vast that it's easy to see that Christianity didn't start with Mithraism. If anything, as far as we can tell, Mithraism did some copying from Christianity, but Christianity is not its source. The two are skew lines.

> "Christianity was always trinitarian." Mary mother of Jesus had rested her soul, so did the Apostles.

I don't know what you mean by this. We have very few statements from Mary about anything, and none that I know of about Jesus's deity. Everything we know about Him comes from the Apostles and those who knew Him, those who knew those who knew Him (such as Luke and Paul), and Paul.

> From letters we can see that Apostles were debating with people around them that Jesus wasn't son of god.

This is patently false.

    * Matthew 14.33: The disciples said, "Truly you are the Son of God."
    * Mark 1.1: His whole Gospel is to show people that Jesus is the Son of God. (Mark 3.11; 15.39)
    * Luke 1.35: The prophecy is that the son born to Mary would be the Son of God, one of the points that Luke is making through his Gospel
    * Luke 4.41: Even the demons know Jesus is the Son of God.
    * John 1.49: The followers of Jesus perceive Him to be the Son of God. John 11.27
    * John 19.7: Jesus Himself claimed to be the Son of God
    * Joh 20.31: The whole point of John's Gospel was to convince people that Jesus is the Son of God
    * Acts 9.20: Paul preached that Jesus is the Son of God.

> If Apostles were monotheist then what was Jesus doing?

Jesus was showing them that He was one and the as God, that He was God (Jn. 10.30).

> So, Greeks accoridng to some were Persian ... (all the way to the end of your post) ... The god as a word means the entity which is followed without questioning.

This has no bearing on the claim that Zoroaster should be an Old Testament prophet and is part of Christianity. Christianity did not derive from the Greeks, from Buddhism, from Zoroastrianism, or Hinduism. Christianity derived from Judaism.

> Jesus was a key figure according to Quran

Jesus is more than a key figure in the Qur'an. He is a prophet like no other.

> God doesn't allow to His believers to rule over all, His rulebook will rule only.

As Christians we are not people of the book, but instead Jesus-followers. It is Jesus who is holy (as the Qur'an also admits), Jesus whom we follow, and Jesus who is Almighty God. It is Jesus, not the book, who is sovereign. The Bible is a revelation of Jesus, not a rulebook that we worship.
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Re: Zoroaster should be an old testament prophet and is part

Postby Conga » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:25 pm

> As Christians we are not people of the book, but instead Jesus-followers. It is Jesus who is holy (as the Qur'an also admits), Jesus whom we follow, and Jesus who is Almighty God. It is Jesus, not the book, who is sovereign. The Bible is a revelation of Jesus, not a rulebook that we worship.

Gospel contains God's decrees and wisdom, its message overlaps with Torah and others too. I can pick any sentence of yours and turn you in to "son of god" like some people claimed for Jesus.

There are plenty of son of god in Torah and Gospel, but the verses you have picked is cut in half. Jesus is a creation of God as he says and again

if God were to be like in any shape of 28K+ denominations of Christianity, there would be marks of that form in each and every revelation.

Moreover Christians wouldn't be divided into cliques because of this non existing definition in any scripture. We can admit Judgment Day but we can't understand the concept of Jesus, whoever from clergy you direct this question they cannot close the loop of

how Jesus is son of god, or how immaculate conception happened

There is always a loop in logic, because it doesn't match with Jesus' teachings.

God's each and every creation is holy, He uses words for everybody, Jesus is holy according to Quran as asteroid belt is.

Jesus known to pray regularly, fast and had a proper attire, Christians are the group of people who redefined their lifestyle.

God is Exalted, if He were to show His face or a thing from His level, He would show Himself on the mountain to Moses. If Jesus didn't existed then it is a proof that he is created.

Jesus makes reverances to another entity "the God"
Conga
 

Re: Zoroaster should be an old testament prophet and is part

Postby jimwalton » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:39 pm

> Gospel contains God's decrees and wisdom, its message overlaps with Torah and others too.

Yes it does, but this is both moot and a red herring. It is Jesus, not the book, that is sovereign. It is Jesus that is holy. (I don't think the Bible ever calls God's revelation holy.)

> I can pick any sentence of yours and turn you in to "son of god" like some people claimed for Jesus.

Nah, ya can't.

> There are plenty of son of god in Torah and Gospel, but the verses you have picked is cut in half.

There are a few, but Jesus uses the term differently, and the term is used of him differently. When I say, "I love you" to my spouse, I mean it differently than when I say "I love you" to my dog. Context matters. If I'm going to the store and I tell my wife, "I'm leaving," it has a very different meaning than if she and I have had a huge fight and I yell, "I'm leaving." Context matters.

> Jesus is a creation of God as he says and again

There is nothing true about this. Jesus is NEVER spoken of as a creation of God. NEVER. If you claim this, you have to show where the Bible says it. Reference, please.

> if God were to be like in any shape of 28K+ denominations of Christianity, there would be marks of that form in each and every revelation.

I don't know what this means.

> whoever from clergy you direct this question they cannot close the loop of
how Jesus is son of god, or how immaculate conception happened

Of course we can. It's easy. The conception of Jesus happened by a miracle of the Holy Spirit. Therefore Jesus is conceived by the Holy Spirit (the "son" of God) and born of the virgin Mary (a human being; son of humankind). By "son" we mean:

* The theological necessity of the incarnation, that Jesus would actually be born in human flesh.
* To emphasize the uniqueness of Jesus’s relationship with YHWH in personal fellowship.
* To emphasize the sending of the 2nd person of the Trinity on a mission.
* To emphasize the “one-bloodness,” so to speak, kinship relationship of YHWH and Jesus. They share a nature; they are of the same essence.

There's no loop in logic any more than there's a loop in the logic of science. There are many examples from science where two are also one.

All physical reality has a dual nature. Mass and energy are, at least in principle, inter-convertible, through nuclear fission or fusion reactions. It's part of what E = mc^2 is all about. We can, therefore, legitimately speak of the universe as a "space-light-time" universe. Light, as you know, is a paradox—exhibiting characteristics of both waves and particles, and yet it definitely behaves as a wave in some instances and as a particle in others. Scientists know this duality applies both in radiations of electro-magnetic energy as well as in the atomic structure of matter, in which the orbiting electron also likewise behaves both as a particle and as a wave.

Black holes are places in space where gravity is so strong that even light can’t escape, but no one has ever been able to say what happens inside a black hole. Stephen Hawking has theorized that rather than being stored within the "grip" of a black hole, information from "within" a black hole actually remains outside of it and is therefore theoretically accessible. So Hawking says information that is inside a black hole is outside a black hole—a paradox or a "self-contradiction"?

In quantum mechanics there is a principle called superposition, where subatomic particles are able to exist in two states simultaneously. This again may be a kind of analogy, if that helps.

For another potential scientific "validation" of such possibilities, in 2017 a group of quantum scientists (University of Science and Technology of China in Shanghai) successfully teleported a photon from earth to a satellite in orbit. It's called quantum entanglement. As far as our discussion here, quantum entanglement means that the two quantum objects share a wave function and share the same identity, even when separated. What happens to one happens to the other—wherever it exists. They are more than identical twins, the article said, "the two are one and the same." Apparently, according to the article, when they interact with matter on Earth they lose certain aspects of entanglement, but in the vacuum of space, they can extend infinitely (eternally). It's just interesting.

> Jesus is holy according to Quran as asteroid belt is.

The Qur'an teaches (Surah 3.45-46) that Isa is holy as Allah is. That's presumably different from an asteroid belt. The Bible teaches that Jesus is holy as is God the Father, meaning He is separate from all creation, distinct and "other," transcendent as well as immanent.

> Jesus known to pray regularly, fast

Jesus prayed regularly, but fasted only once that we know of. He was sometimes criticized because his disciples didn't fast (The Injil: Mk. 2.18). We don't know that Jesus fasted any time other than before His temptation in the wilderness.

> had a proper attire

We know absolutely nothing about Jesus's attire.

> Christians are the group of people who redefined their lifestyle.

Yes. Christians are not bound to a particular culture, language, or lifestyle as Muslims are. We are free.

> God is Exalted, if He were to show His face or a thing from His level, He would show Himself on the mountain to Moses. If Jesus didn't existed then it is a proof that he is created.

I don't know what you mean by this. God showed Himself at least in a partial way to Moses. Jesus showed an "emptied" part of Himself to the world (Phil. 2.7). No one can see God in His fullness and live.

> Jesus makes reverances to another entity "the God"

Yes he does, twice, I think (Mk. 15.34; Jn. 20.17). He is speaking of God the Father (same verse). Notice He never puts himself on the level of other humans. It's always "my Father" and "your Father" (never "our Father," except in the Lord's Prayer when he was teaching the people how they should pray), "my God" and "your God," (never "our God").

This kind of language does not fit with a later writer bent on creating the idea that Jesus was God. The reason for his distinction is not, of course, that there are two gods, but rather that her relationship with God was different from his. He is the eternal Son of the Father; she, as well as all the disciples, had become a member of the family by receiving Him (cf. John 1.12). Both relationships concerned only one God.
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Re: Zoroaster should be an old testament prophet and is part

Postby Conga » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:43 am

Judaism is a belief system which has no relation or basis from God's revelations. People who claim to follow that belief system had been openly damned by the mouth of David and Jesus. God had cast expulsion from their lands twice on these people,

    * the first occurred once people who claim to be following Judaism declared Solomon an idolator then divided his regime into parts
    * the second occurred, once the people who claim to be following Judaism, declared that they have killed the Messiah and slandered to Mary mother of Jesus

God asks to people who claim to follow Judaism, if they say a verity from the religion then why did they killed and obliterated multiple newsbearers sent by God?

So if you think Christianity has a relationship with Judaism, then you would be ready to be treated in the same manner. God openly denies the right to lend money with usury even in the famous Deuteronomy verse in the Hebrew original, but people who have ill behaviour in their hearts pervert the meaning of that single verb to give "raise" meaning.

God knows what hypocrites and non-believers do. And He is enough to solve all the matters. Jesus warned about this sort of behaviour in Gospels, and when he said "love your enemy" he underlined the not so naive misconceptions pinned to Torah.

Again, in al-e Emran 3:45-46, talks about God's decree. We are all God's decrees, so is Jesus. And Jesus has died like any other human being al-e Emran 3:55.

> I don't know what you mean by this. God showed Himself at least in a partial way to Moses. Jesus showed an "emptied" part of Himself to the world (Phil. 2.7). No one can see God in His fullness and live.

Letters have no precedence over Jesus' teachings, if Jesus is as you claim you shouldn't take letters of Paul into consideration.
But if you don't take into consideration then Jesus isn't as you define.
Conga
 

Re: Zoroaster should be an old testament prophet and is part

Postby jimwalton » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:43 am

> Judaism is a belief system which has no relation or basis from God's revelations.

In contrast, Judaism is DEFINED by God's revelations. That's the whole point in Judaism: God has revealed Himself. God has spoken. And God desires a personal relationship with His people.

> People who claim to follow that belief system had been openly damned by the mouth of David

Once again, there is nothing true about this. I have been saying this about your input a lot. And whenever I ask for references to substantiate what you're saying, you don't provide them. But here I go again: Where did David condemn the Jewish people? Please give me some references to show that this has ANY truth to it.

> the first occurred once people who claim to be following Judaism declared Solomon an idolator then divided his regime into parts

This is not true. The people never declared Solomon to be an idolater. God did, but the people didn't. They never rebelled against Solomon. They rebelled against his son, Rehoboam, because of the tax load he put on them (1 Ki. 12.1-4ff.)

> the second occurred, once the people who claim to be following Judaism, declared that they have killed the Messiah and slandered to Mary mother of Jesus

Again, this is not true. There is no evidence that anyone slandered anything to Mary. Please give a reference to show what you're talking about.

> God asks to people who claim to follow Judaism, if they say a verity from the religion then why did they killed and obliterated multiple newsbearers sent by God?

They killed his prophets because they were apostate, corrupt, and godless. They had fallen from the truth.

> So if you think Christianity has a relationship with Judaism, then you would be ready to be treated in the same manner.

Yes, we are ready to suffer and be rejected (2 Tim. 3.12; 1 Peter 4.12-14). Jesus prophesied it (Jn. 15.18).

> God openly denies the right to lend money with usury even in the famous Deuteronomy verse in the Hebrew original, but people who have ill behaviour in their hearts pervert the meaning of that single verb to give "raise" meaning.

You're correct that people pervert the meaning, and in their greed they ignore it. But don't blame that on Christianity.

> God knows what hypocrites and non-believers do. And He is enough to solve all the matters. Jesus warned about this sort of behaviour in Gospels

This is all correct.

> and when he said "love your enemy" he underlined the not so naive misconceptions pinned to Torah.

I don't know what you mean by this. Please explain.

> And Jesus has died like any other human being al-e Emran 3:55.

But isa is the only prophet who has power over death (Surah 3.49). Not even Muhammad had that power. Allah demonstrated his power through Isa. Surah 4.50 instructs Muslims to obey Isa.

> Letters have no precedence over Jesus' teachings, if Jesus is as you claim you shouldn't take letters of Paul into consideration.

As Christians, we take all of the sacred writings as coming from God and of equal weight. He taught truth through the prophets, He taught truth through His Son, Jesus, and He taught truth through Paul and all the other writers. The words of Jesus are not unique. What is unique about Jesus is that He is God, He died to save us from our sins, and He rose from the dead to conquer death. But His teachings are the same revelation from God as the other writers of the Bible.

> But if you don't take into consideration then Jesus isn't as you define.

This is incorrect. Jesus is divine because of who He is, not because of what He said.
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Re: Zoroaster should be an old testament prophet and is part

Postby Conga » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:52 pm

> Again, this is not true. There is no evidence that anyone slandered anything to Mary. Please give a reference to show what you're talking about.

Midrash is the series of explanations of Torah. After Jesus rested his soul these oral traditions started to put on paper. Jesus used allegories and stories used in these series as well as aspects which exist here but not in Torah. Jesus or any individual could only have a grasp of this information from these series only if they studied at multiple different schools or clergymen at his time. Jesus was supported by Gabriel about revelations given to Israelites.

From a common source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud

It is a clean cut summary about Jesus and his mother Mary.

All other notes you have made are based on Christology wars, you have a Book sent by God and it is very explanatory.
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Re: Zoroaster should be an old testament prophet and is part

Postby jimwalton » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:53 pm

> Midrash is the series of explanations of Torah.

Midrash is not the inspired holy Word of God. Midrash is not sacred writings, but instead human commentary. Midrash has no authority, only interest.

> After Jesus rested his soul these oral traditions started to put on paper.

Anybody can write anything they want. Who cares. We recognize as authoritative only the writings from God (the Old and New Testaments).

> The Wikipedia article about the Talmud.

Yes, that's from a century or much more after Jesus. It's not authoritative, but only of historical interest. I really couldn't care what it says about Jesus and Mary. It has no Scriptural authority. I'm sure I could find some writings about Mohammed from 8th century Europe, about 150 years after his life, that would not be so complimentary. And about those you would say, "Those have no authority. We only follow the Qur'an and the Hadith." Same here. The Talmud has no authority to tell us anything about Jesus and Mary.
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