by jimwalton » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:25 pm
Glad to talk, and I'm glad to take debate out of it. I'm much more comfortable just sharing information and perspectives.
It was God's intent that people spend their lives and eternity with him. We don't know anything about the origin of Satan, what kind of being he is or how he got that way, apparently his antagonism towards God is intractable, and a place of total separation from God was planned for him and all spiritual beings that follow him. Hell was not prepared for humans. God is not of the desire that any human should enter there (2 Peter 3.9). Even in Jewish traditions destruction was not God's purpose for people (4 Ezra 8.59-60). Humans only go there if they insist on having nothing to do with God. Humans are choosing a fate that was not meant to be theirs.
> How is it that Hell was created for something else that has nothing to do with people then is a place people are sent when they die without following God?
There are only two choices: you are either with God (in love relationship, sharing his life) or you are not with God (not in relationship, not sharing his life). The latter is what we call hell. If you don't want to be with God, there's only one other option: not with God.
> Wouldn't that mean God changed something to send them there?
No. It's the place of separation from God designed for those who rebelled (Satan and his angels). But all humans who also choose to rebel against God are making the choice to be separated from him—to enter there also. God can't force people to love him because forced love isn't love at all, but rather slavery.
> I don't think people can choose to go to a place that wasn't created for them to enter.
It's more accurate to speak about relationships, because that's really what the Christian system is founded on. If you don't want to be in relationship with God, then God has to let you make the choice to not be in relationship with Him. Let's say, just for the sake of example, that God is everywhere except one room. If you want to get away from God, that one room is your only alternative.
> If God doesn't want people there, then he can keep people out.
Love can't be coerced or it isn't love. If God doesn't want people there, he can reveal himself to them (which he does), he can warn them (which he does), he can offer them all the good stuff (which he does), he can send people to teach them (which he does), and he can write all this down so everyone can have access to it (which he does). But he can't keep people out. They have to choose it themselves because it's all about relationship.
> And if the place wasn't designed for eternal punishment, then all of these things that listed in the Book of Life had to be created by someone specifically for torture there.
I don't believe hell is literal fire. Hell is not "One Fire Tortures All." Fire is just the image of untold suffering, which is what one will experience when separated from God. We have strong hints that there are different degrees of punishment in hell (totally unlike the different levels of hell as in Dante's Divine Comedy, which is not Scripture). The only torture going on is the agony of true separation from God. Don't picture it as a Medieval torture chamber with God laughing maniacally while he turns the screws another notch, or God stoking to fires to keep them going. Those are cartoonish images (not that you made them).
On to your other questions.
1. Who runs hell? No one does. There is no indication in the Bible that it's a corporation, kingdom, hierarchy, or management. There's nothing to "run." It's a state of relational separation, no management skills required. No one is the boss.
2. If God created it for something else, how did it get repurposed without his consent? Hell wasn't repurposed. That's the wrong way of looking at it. Suppose there were two doors. Door #1 was the door of a relationship with God. Door #2 was for the devil and his angels. People approach and go to door #2, and God says, "Don't go in there. That's not for you." But people go in anyway. Nothing was repurposed.
3. If God isn't the ultimate authority on what happens there then does that mean he cannot control some things? Or does he choose not to control what happens in Hell? There are lots of things God doesn't control. He doesn't make us sin. He doesn't perpetrate evil. He doesn't tempt people. He doesn't control the barbaric ways people treat other people.
There's nothing to "control" in hell. It's just the place of separation from God. Suppose your girlfriend or boyfriend breaks up with you, and it sends you into an emotional tailspin. It's just no helpful and incorrect to ask, "Who's controlling your agony?" Your agony is merely the result of that broken relationship.
4. If you believe God still is in charge of everything, including Hell, how is he not responsible for torture there? See above.
5. If it has be explicitly stated that God is the "boss" for him to be able to affect what happens there, what verse leads you to believe that he legitimately has no control or authority over that?
- Sin is rebellion and disobedience against God. A kingdom working against itself can't stand (Matt. 12.25). Transgression and sin are associated with death (Eph. 2.1). God can't be controlling sin.
- Ephesians 2.2 speaks of the ruler of the kingdom of the air. In other words, there is a spiritual being who has rule over acts of disobedience, and it isn't God.
- James 1.13-14 say that God doesn't tempt people to evil, they tempt themselves. It comes out of their own hearts. The text implies, then, that God is not the boss of our hearts, nor is he in control of the temptations that come from our hearts.
That should do to establish the point.
6. If God is considered fair and just as well as the punishments for sin to you, why is it "bad" that he is the boss/in charge of that to you? God is certainly the judge who is able to make sure the punishment is just. But that doesn't mean he's torturing you. It means he reserves the right and authority to restore you to himself after an appropriate amount of separation, IF that is what he is right in doing (there are many theories about whether hell is eternal for everyone or not, and how it ends if it does).
Glad to talk, and I'm glad to take debate out of it. I'm much more comfortable just sharing information and perspectives.
It was God's intent that people spend their lives and eternity with him. We don't know anything about the origin of Satan, what kind of being he is or how he got that way, apparently his antagonism towards God is intractable, and a place of total separation from God was planned for him and all spiritual beings that follow him. Hell was not prepared for humans. God is not of the desire that any human should enter there (2 Peter 3.9). Even in Jewish traditions destruction was not God's purpose for people (4 Ezra 8.59-60). Humans only go there if they insist on having nothing to do with God. Humans are choosing a fate that was not meant to be theirs.
> How is it that Hell was created for something else that has nothing to do with people then is a place people are sent when they die without following God?
There are only two choices: you are either with God (in love relationship, sharing his life) or you are not with God (not in relationship, not sharing his life). The latter is what we call hell. If you don't want to be with God, there's only one other option: not with God.
> Wouldn't that mean God changed something to send them there?
No. It's the place of separation from God designed for those who rebelled (Satan and his angels). But all humans who also choose to rebel against God are making the choice to be separated from him—to enter there also. God can't force people to love him because forced love isn't love at all, but rather slavery.
> I don't think people can choose to go to a place that wasn't created for them to enter.
It's more accurate to speak about relationships, because that's really what the Christian system is founded on. If you don't want to be in relationship with God, then God has to let you make the choice to not be in relationship with Him. Let's say, just for the sake of example, that God is everywhere except one room. If you want to get away from God, that one room is your only alternative.
> If God doesn't want people there, then he can keep people out.
Love can't be coerced or it isn't love. If God doesn't want people there, he can reveal himself to them (which he does), he can warn them (which he does), he can offer them all the good stuff (which he does), he can send people to teach them (which he does), and he can write all this down so everyone can have access to it (which he does). But he can't keep people out. They have to choose it themselves because it's all about relationship.
> And if the place wasn't designed for eternal punishment, then all of these things that listed in the Book of Life had to be created by someone specifically for torture there.
I don't believe hell is literal fire. Hell is not "One Fire Tortures All." Fire is just the image of untold suffering, which is what one will experience when separated from God. We have strong hints that there are different degrees of punishment in hell (totally unlike the different levels of hell as in Dante's Divine Comedy, which is not Scripture). The only torture going on is the agony of true separation from God. Don't picture it as a Medieval torture chamber with God laughing maniacally while he turns the screws another notch, or God stoking to fires to keep them going. Those are cartoonish images (not that you made them).
On to your other questions.
1. Who runs hell? No one does. There is no indication in the Bible that it's a corporation, kingdom, hierarchy, or management. There's nothing to "run." It's a state of relational separation, no management skills required. No one is the boss.
2. If God created it for something else, how did it get repurposed without his consent? Hell wasn't repurposed. That's the wrong way of looking at it. Suppose there were two doors. Door #1 was the door of a relationship with God. Door #2 was for the devil and his angels. People approach and go to door #2, and God says, "Don't go in there. That's not for you." But people go in anyway. Nothing was repurposed.
3. If God isn't the ultimate authority on what happens there then does that mean he cannot control some things? Or does he choose not to control what happens in Hell? There are lots of things God doesn't control. He doesn't make us sin. He doesn't perpetrate evil. He doesn't tempt people. He doesn't control the barbaric ways people treat other people.
There's nothing to "control" in hell. It's just the place of separation from God. Suppose your girlfriend or boyfriend breaks up with you, and it sends you into an emotional tailspin. It's just no helpful and incorrect to ask, "Who's controlling your agony?" Your agony is merely the result of that broken relationship.
4. If you believe God still is in charge of everything, including Hell, how is he not responsible for torture there? See above.
5. If it has be explicitly stated that God is the "boss" for him to be able to affect what happens there, what verse leads you to believe that he legitimately has no control or authority over that?
- Sin is rebellion and disobedience against God. A kingdom working against itself can't stand (Matt. 12.25). Transgression and sin are associated with death (Eph. 2.1). God can't be controlling sin.
- Ephesians 2.2 speaks of the ruler of the kingdom of the air. In other words, there is a spiritual being who has rule over acts of disobedience, and it isn't God.
- James 1.13-14 say that God doesn't tempt people to evil, they tempt themselves. It comes out of their own hearts. The text implies, then, that God is not the boss of our hearts, nor is he in control of the temptations that come from our hearts.
That should do to establish the point.
6. If God is considered fair and just as well as the punishments for sin to you, why is it "bad" that he is the boss/in charge of that to you? God is certainly the judge who is able to make sure the punishment is just. But that doesn't mean he's torturing you. It means he reserves the right and authority to restore you to himself after an appropriate amount of separation, IF that is what he is right in doing (there are many theories about whether hell is eternal for everyone or not, and how it ends if it does).