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Satan, Lucifer, demons, demon possession, and exorcism.

Re: How did Lucifer happen?

Postby FIW » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:40 am

Well, I didn’t claim that there was a connection to Satan and the book of Isaiah, in my initial comment!

But, since you have now brought it up, the bible suggests that Satan has authority over all the kingdoms of the earth and that he can possess, influence and inflict diseases upon humans. That, he can travel between the abode of angels and this earth, as well as create miracles. He is referred to as a prince, ruler and god or powerful one of this earth.

So, to suggest that Satan was not “part of or behind” the rebellion of the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14, surely could be ignoring the facts.
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Re: How did Lucifer happen?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:40 am

I agree with everything you said in your second paragraph. It's information that's straight from the Bible.

Your third paragraph, on the other hand, doesn't qualify as "surely." James 1.14 indicates that temptation comes from our own evil hearts far more than from external. It's our tendency to want to blame others, and especially Satan, for our problems. We don’t want to blame ourselves, because that would make it seem like there’s something wrong with us, or it was our mistake, or something in our hearts is not right. And we’re uncomfortable with that thought, so we always blame other people, God, the dog, the weather, or whatever we can. We can't face our inadequacies, and we don’t want to feel responsible for what we’ve done, so we blame.

The king of Isaiah 14 is a victim of his own cancerous pride. There is no indication in the text that Satan needs to bother with this guy; he's quite capable on his own of bringing about his own downfall. Secondly, examination of the text shows that reference to Satan (or even understanding the role of Satan) is far from the author's intent. His objective is to show the failings of pride, not the activity of a hidden spiritual power.
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Re: How did Lucifer happen?

Postby Bad Boy » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:20 am

You're saying God didn't create evil, but knew that it would be created if people chose not to do the right things. And he knew people would not always do the right things since he gave us free will, so it was a certainty that evil would exist and he allowed it: Saying God had nothing to do with evil sounds like a cop out unless you can say that God doesn't have control over everything.
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Re: How did Lucifer happen?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:26 am

You're right that God knew evil would result from people's wrong choices. You're right that God knew people would not always do the right things since he gave us free will.

I am definitely saying God doesn't have control over everything. There's no such thing as free will if God is controlling what we decide. Free will is only possible if it's free and not determined. So I can say with certainty that God doesn't have control over everything. It's not what all-powerful (omnipotence) means. Omnipotence doesn't mean that there are no limits to what God can do. God's omnipotence means that he is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power. He can realize whatever is possible, and there are no number of actualized possibilities that exhaust his power. His sovereign will is never frustrated. But there are all kinds of things God can't do.

- He can’t do what is logically absurd or contradictory
- He can’t act contrary to his nature
- He cannot fail to do what he has promised
- The theology of omnipotence rejects the possibility of dualism
- He cannot interfere with the freedom of man
- He cannot change the past

So God did not control the onset of evil. He didn't create it; he's not responsible for it.
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Re: How did Lucifer happen?

Postby Bad Boy » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:51 pm

It does make sense that God doesn't control everything, else, we would have no free will. But I can't agree that he can't do what is logically absurd or contradictory, at least by human logic. For example, all of Egyptian firstborn were killed indiscriminately whether they were a grandpa or a baby because the pharaoh didn't listen to God's messenger. To me, that's logically absurd and unjust, which is contradictory to what he's supposed to be. And that interfered with the freedom of man because those killed had no freedom to make any kind of choice and just died off at a snap of His finger. Same with Jericho: No one was spared and all men, women, and children were killed because of the sins of their ancestor, Canaan. People's fate was already decided by ancestry and that directly contradicts freedom or choice.
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Re: How did Lucifer happen?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:51 pm

By absurd or contradictory I mean such irrationality as "Can God make a circle that's square? Can he make something that's unmade? Can he go up while going down? Can he make a rock he can't lift?" These are self-contradictory nonsense, at least by human logic.

The judgment of the firstborn is in a very different category, and there was nothing arbitrary about it. To you it may seem unjust, but God's action was a judgment against a false religious system that elevated Pharaoh to the point of a god who had total dominion over life and death. All of the people of the land were complicit and equally guilty of abuse of the Hebrew people and of the murder of their firstborn children (Ex. 1). God's actions were a judgment on the guilty (I presume you accept that the role of a good judge is to vindicate and release the innocent and convict and punish the guilty). His actions against Egypt were "let the punishment fit the crime."

As far as Jericho is concerned, there are two facts you are missing. (1) if anyone turned to God and wanted to join the community of the Israelites, their lives would be spared [see the example of Rahab], and (2) they had plenty of chances to surrender but chose not to do that. They were not killed because of the sins of their ancestor, but because of their own sins.

Judging people for their crimes is not a contradiction of free will, but an endorsement of it. They made their bed, and so they will lie in it.
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Re: How did Lucifer happen?

Postby Bad Boy » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:12 pm

I don't think they made their bed but rather, the bed was already made when they were born. If God's justice is based on the society as a whole, than there is no individual free will. The crime of an average Egyptian was being born in a society that was already shaped the way it was. Even if someone somehow got the info that it was wrong and was convinced that it was wrong in a society that agreed that it was right, it would have been an extremely extraordinary feat to stand up to the pharaoh: The choice to do the "good" is not really a fair choice if it also comes with "...but you'll suffer and die". As it turned out, they died anyway because they didn't make the right choice, instead of dying because they made the right one: What a choice. And at the very least, shouldn't the children or babies have been spared since they had even less of a choice in that matter than an adult? This concept of collective punishment does not fit with the current concept of morality; else, we would have just carpet bombed Iraq and Syria with zero regards to civilian casualty because their government sucked and "they made their bed, and so they will lie in it."
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Re: How did Lucifer happen?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:13 pm

God didn't judge them as a society, but as individuals. Anyone (individual family units) who had the blood on their door was spared (Ex. 12.13). It was a free will choice. Also notice that when the Israelites left Egypt, many others went with them (Ex. 12.38). It was a free will choice: anyone could put the blood on the door, anyone could be spared, and those who wanted to become part of God's covenant people were welcome to join them. You scoff, "What a choice," but they had a fair choice. They all had a fair choice, and those who chose for God were spared and left Egypt that same night. What's unfair?

And what about the children? Remember in the Bible death is not the end, but a transition. The children were taken to heaven, as the Bible suggests that all children who die go to heaven, since they are not morally aware or spiritually at fault. It's a quite different scenario than the U.S. carpet-bombing Iraq and Syria with zero regard for civilian casualties.
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Re: How did Lucifer happen?

Postby Bad Boy » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:28 am

I remember being punished for not closing my eyes during a prayer before dinner and can't even imagine what punishment I would have received if I wanted to recite from the Koran instead. I'm sure the opposite is true in Islamic countries and I wouldn't even be surprised if someone was stoned for that reason in some of those countries. We are all shaped by the society we live in, and believing and acting against the values of our society requires extraordinary circumstances that convince us of it's truth despite everyone around you saying otherwise, and extraordinary faith and sacrifice to practice them. Yeah, you can still call that a choice, but you can't call that a fair choice as if it was as simple as merely painting their door with blood or not.
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Re: How did Lucifer happen?

Postby jimwalton » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:32 am

I agree with everything you said here, except "you can't call that a fair choice." I'll readily agree that some decisions are easy (which donut do I want) and some are extremely difficult (will I go against my upbringing and everything I was taught to subscribe to what I now consider to be the truth). But they're all still fair choices. One takes more courage, but that doesn't make it unfair. I would guess the only unfair choice is the one that isn't a choice at all: "Do you want to die or be killed?" That's not a fair choice because it isn't a choice at all. "Do you want to keep following the religion of your upbringing or change to what you now know to be the truth" takes a whole lot more thought and courage, but it's still a fair choice.
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