Board index ‹ LGBT: Gays, Lesbians, Bisexual, Transgender, and Homosexuality

[magictoast15]

Hi Jim, I heard you on The Phil Vischer Podcast and thought maybe you'd be able to help me with this question.

I've always assumed that, even though homosexuality is wrong, a gay person who does not believe that the Bible condemns it could still be saved. After all, we all have sin our lives that we will never fully acknowledge or repent of, right? But recently I came across 1 Corinthians 5:11, which says, "But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."

I'm confused because I know gay people who appear to be genuinely seeking to follow Jesus and showing the fruits of the Spirit, they just don't see the problem with homosexuality. Are they not really saved? And if so, are we not supposed to associate with them, as this verse suggests? Thanks in advance.

[jimwalton]

Thanks for asking. GREAT question. Salvation is dependent on whether or not we have the nature of Jesus in us, not our sexuality. Let's just get that straight right out of the gates. Salvation is by grace through faith. One can be a homosexual and be a Christian.

At the same time it's necessary to say that anyone who is in Christ dies to sin. Romans 6.1-14 speaks strongly that if we have died to sin, we can't live in it any longer (v. 2). The cross was the means God used to bring an end to "the old things", and through His death deliverance from sin is very real (v. 6).

But now let's talk about 1 Cor. 5.11. One point of 1 Cor. 5 is that we should never accommodate sin. Christians shouldn't yawn at sin or tolerate it. But the goal is always to bring a sinner to repentance and a right relationship with the Lord. The verse in specific:

"You must not associate." The Greek word συναναμίγνυσθαι: "Mix up together; mingle or associate with." Is talking about habitual social relationship.

"With anyone who calls himself a brother." He's talking about other Christians, not those who are in the world who may be engaging in the same sin.

"but is sexually immoral." The Greek word is πόρνος: "Prostitution; unchastity; fornication (every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse)." Sarah Ruden, Christian and ancient Greek language and culture expert, says, "The steady meaning of this term in polytheistic literature is 'prostitution' or 'whoring.' ... The Greeks and Romans had many terms to show disgust for a woman who had more than one sexual partner; on the other hand, a man who was erotically rapacious would not be called names, as long as he followed just a few rules, the one against adultery (sex with another man’s wife) being the most important. Paul signaled a vast change in morals by indicating that both an unfaithful man and an unfaithful woman, with no distinction, behaved 'like whores.' It is unlikely that porneia meant, at least to Paul's Greco-Roman readers, all consensual extramarital sex, which is our basic modern definition of fornication. The Greeks and Romans did not make the same distinctions about sex that we do. We think of two basic kinds: sex within and sex outside of legal marriage. But for the polytheistic ancients, marriage was not as straightforward a matter. Slaves could not be legally married as free people were, but many had long-term unions that got some recognition, and raised their children together. Porneia meant sex bought by the act and with no further obligation. A porne, or prostitute, was normally a slave. Some had to parade naked in public places. Greek vase paintings show men beating them, evidently for fun. This was the institution behind Paul's word, and even when he isn't writing about sex for hire, he is probably emphasizing brutality. For the polytheists, the essence of porneia was treating another human being as a thing. If I had been one of Paul's typical early readers, whatever else I understood from his use of this word, I would have picked up that treating another human being as a thing was no longer OK."

Your question is, "Should we not associate with homosexuals who claim to be Christians?" That's a touchy question in our era, where some Christians think that considering homosexuality a sin will soon fall to the wayside as did slavery, and other Christians are convinced that homosexuality is biblically a sin and will never fall by the wayside. I would say with confidence, giving weighty consideration to Sarah's Ruden's excellent and deep scholarly words, that this verse doesn't pertain to homosexuality except in the case where a LGBT person is flagrantly and habitually promiscuous. And if a person is a homosexual and claims to be a Christian but is habitually promiscuous, then that comes under the definition of "sexually immoral" and should be treated as any other church discipline case of prostitution or sexual promiscuity, whether hetero or homo. I would say that's what this verse is talking about.

I'm willing to talk more. As you read this analysis I gave you in this post, to what conclusion do you come?

[magictoast15]

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. What about 1 Corinthians 6:9? Is it more accurate to translate the term in that verse as "homosexual offenders", as I've often heard? And it's also important to consider that the Bible has harsh words for those who call something God says is sin okay, like Isaiah 5:20.

I don't think I'm changing my original beliefs about this yet, I just want to make sure I'm aligned with the truth. The college pastor at my church asked us to submit questions about the culture that we can discuss in Sunday School over the next few months, so I submitted this question. I'm curious what his answer will be.

[jimwalton]

I'll give you what I have, and hope that it helps. In 1 Cor. 6.9, the term for "sexually immoral" is πόρνοι (pornoi), the same term that was in 1 Cor. 5.11, and with the same meaning.

The word for "male prostitutes" is μαλακοὶ (malakoi). The definitions from my research is that it means "Soft; effeminate; catamite (men and boys who allow themselves to be misused homosexually)," referring to the passive, "female" partner in a male homosexual exchange. Hays (in The Moral Vision of the New Testament, p. 382), and James Brownson (in Bible Gender Sexuality, pp. 273-274), say: "This is not a technical term meaning 'homosexuals' (for no such term existed either in Greek or in Hebrew), but it appears often in Hellenistic Greek as pejorative slang to describe the 'passive' partners—often young boys—in homosexual activity. Using these multiple words reflects widely accepted roles that were part of same-sex erotic behavior in the ancient world: active older men with passive younger men, i.e., pederasty."

The word for "homosexual offenders" is ἀρσενοκοῖται (arsenokoitai). Again, the definitions from my research are: "A male homosexual; pederast (one that practices anal intercourse esp. with a boy); sodomite (one who practices copulation with a member of the same sex or with an animal); those who engage in homosexual acts; one who lies with a male as with a female." The active, "male" partner in a sexual exchange.

Hays says, "This word is not found in any extant Greek text earlier than 1 Corinthians. Robin Scroggs has shown that it is a translation of the Hebrew mishkav zakur (“lying with a male”), derived directly from Lev. 18.22 and 20.13 and used in rabbinic texts to refer to homosexual intercourse. Thus, Paul’s use of the term presupposes and reaffirms the holiness code’s condemnation of homosexual acts. This is not a controversial point in Paul’s argument; the letter gives no evidence that anyone at Corinth was arguing to the acceptance of same-sex erotic activity."

And here are J.I. Packer's comments from an article in Christianity Today in 2003:

First: What is Paul talking about in this vice list? Answer: Lifestyles, regular behavior patterns, habits of mind and action. He has in view not single lapses followed by repentance, forgiveness, and greater watchfulness (with God’s help) against recurrence, but ways of life in which some of his readers were set, believing that for Christians there was no harm in them.

Second: What is Paul saying about these habits? Answer: They are ways of sin that, if not repented of and forsaken, will keep people out of God's kingdom of salvation. Clearly, self indulgence and self service, free from self discipline and self denial, is the attitude they express, and a lack of moral discernment lies at their heart.

Third: What is Paul saying about homosexuality? Answer: Those who claim to be Christ's should avoid the practice of same sex physical connection for orgasm, on the model of heterosexual intercourse. Paul's phrase, "men who practice homosexuality," covers two Greek words for the parties involved in these acts. The first, arsenokoitai, means literally “male bedders,” which seems clear enough. The second, malakoi, is used in many connections to mean “unmanly,” “womanish,” and “effeminate,” and here refers to males matching the woman's part in physical sex.

In this context, in which Paul has used two terms for sexual misbehavior, there is really no room for doubt regarding what he has in mind. He must have known, as Christians today know, that some men are sexually drawn to men rather than women, but he is not speaking of inclinations, only of behavior, what has more recently been called acting out. His point is that Christians need to resist these urges, since acting them out cannot please God and will reveal lethal impenitence. Romans 1:26 shows that Paul would have spoken similarly about lesbian acting out if he had had reason to mention it here.

Fourth: What is Paul saying about the gospel? Answer: Those who, as lost sinners, cast themselves in genuine faith on Christ and so receive the Holy Spirit, as all Christians do (see Gal. 3:2), find transformation through the transaction. They gain cleansing of conscience (the washing of forgiveness), acceptance with God (justification), and strength to resist and not act out the particular temptations they experience (sanctification). As a preacher friend declared to his congregation, “I want you to know that I am a non-practicing adulterer.” Thus he testified to receiving strength from God.


Hopefully these quoted references will help you sort this all out. It's a very difficult issue, but we want to treat it biblically, making wise decisions and behaving in a Christ-like way. Let me know what other questions you have.

[magictoast15]

I want to make sure I'm understanding Packer's quote correctly. He's basically saying that those who regularly practice homosexuality (and I'm assuming that includes those in commited, monogamous relationships) will not inherit the kingdom of God unless they repent. Right?

[jimwalton]

Right. That is what he's saying. He is saying that being a homosexual isn't a sin, but acting on it is. Packer is saying that we are all sinners by nature and at heart, so it's not having homosexual inclinations that is the problem, but acting on them. And yes, my reading of Packer and what he is saying and means is that that includes even in committed, monogamous relationships. That's my understanding of what he's saying.