Board index Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages Genesis

The beginning of the covenant; Faith vs. Faithlessness

Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey?

Postby Qwerty » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:31 pm

Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey him?
Qwerty
 

Re: Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey?

Postby jimwalton » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:37 pm

Yes, He did know. God knows all things because He can see all along the timeline. But His ability to see doesn't mean that He forced them to disobey, that He created them to disobey, that the system was rigged against them, that they were tricked, or that they had no free will. Knowledge is not causative. Only power is causative. God's ability to move forward in time to see what they would do doesn't mean God made them disobey. They had every option in front of them, and the power to obey or disobey. Their disobedience was theirs and theirs alone.

The Bible says that because God knew they would disobey, He had already designed a way to win them back in relationship to Himself, since He could not interfere with their free will. He knew they would disobey and so instituted a plan of restoration, redemption, and reconciliation.

I would guess, however, that there's more behind your question that you have withheld. Let's talk.
jimwalton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5501
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm

Re: Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey?

Postby Young Rocks » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:01 pm

It is: Omniscience implies knowledge of what his creatures would do. If he wanted them not to, he would have created them a way he knew wouldn't be faulty. If he couldn't know that they would do it because of free will, then he isn't omniscient and here lies an absurdity.
Young Rocks
 

Re: Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey?

Postby jimwalton » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:06 pm

Knowledge of what his creatures would do implies his ability to see, not his interference to force or determine them to do it. No matter how much I know, my knowledge doesn't make anybody do anything. If I were able to travel forward in time to see what you were going to write back to me, or to not even respond, my seeing that would not force you to write what you of your own free will choose to write, or even not to write at all. Knowledge is not causative, and even all-knowledge (omniscience) is not causative. Knowledge only sees or comprehends, it cannot coerce.

> If he wanted them not to, he would have created them a way he knew wouldn't be faulty.

Their ability to choose either right or wrong is not a condition of "faulty." Free will, to be free, must be free. If free will is restricted from choosing badly, it is not free. When God created them to be able to use their minds, He cannot then restrict how they can use them. They are free agents, and that is a beneficial state of affairs, not a faulty one.

> If he couldn't know that they would do it because of free will, then he isn't omniscient and here lies an absurdity.

No problem here. God knew they would do it because of free will. But free will that isn't free isn't free will. God can see, but God does not coerce. Therefore, there is no absurdity, either in God's omniscience, humankind's free will, or humankind's wrong choices.
jimwalton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5501
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm

Re: Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey?

Postby Young Rocks » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:22 pm

Your exemple of time travel doesn't fit. God CREATED humans. Therefore he did interfere quite heavily in how they would turn out. He knew that giving them ears would allow them to hear. So if he didn't want them to hear, he wouldn't have created ears.

"God knew they would do it because of free will" then they couldn't NOT do it, therefore it isn't free will. Omniscience and free will directly contredict each other, if one exists, the other one is an absurdity.
Young Rocks
 

Re: Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey?

Postby jimwalton » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:45 am

Since you are talking about Christian theology and about the teachings of the Bible, you are not free to manufacture what makes sense to you. Instead, we must follow what the Bible tells us. Therefore the example of time travel most certainly DOES fit. God is not bound by time. Past, present, and future are the same to Him. He can see it all as if it is right in front of His eyes. God can move forward to see. At least one aspect of His knowledge is based on His ability to see all. But there is absolutely no teaching or claim in the Bible that His knowledge requires that He also determines all behavior. The example of time travel is a very fitting description of that factor of God's omniscience.

> God CREATED humans. Therefore he did interfere quite heavily in how they would turn out.

This is a non sequitur. God's CREATION of humans is no implication of His interference in how they would turn out. The Bible is clear that God created humans to determine for themselves how they would turn out. You are entitled to own opinion, but not to your own facts. If you want to know what the Bible says, we have to go with what the Bible says, not with what you say you think it says.

> Omniscience and free will directly contredict each other, if one exists, the other one is an absurdity.

Again you are mistaken. Suppose your mama knows you very well, so well, in fact, that she pretty much knows what your preferences are. She made you, she raised you, and she knows you. Does her knowledge of you force you to make decisions and interfere with your free will? Of course not. Suppose she knew you 10 times better than she does? It still doesn't interfere with your free will. Suppose she can see RIGHT INTO YOUR MIND, and knows what you're going to do? It STILL doesn't interfere with your free will. Suppose she knows all and sees all? It STILL doesn't interfere with your actions. Knowledge is not causative. Only power is causative. Knowledge is benign in that sense.


Last bumped by Anonymous on Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:45 am.
jimwalton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5501
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:28 pm


Return to Genesis

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest