Board index The Problem of Evil and Suffering

Why do bad things happen? Why is there so much suffering in the world? How can we make sense of it all. Is God not good? Is he too weak?

Are people inherently evil?

Postby Blue Pig » Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:31 pm

Are people inherently evil? I get the feeling that many people in Christianity see people as default evil. That someone you don't know is most likely evil. I say it seems that way, I want to hear opinions.
My basis for this also comes from my fundie teachings that all people are born with sin, and are sinners. That no one is good except those that have come to Christ. If this is the belief, doesn't that make every non-christian at least somewhat evil?

So my question is "do you see people you don't know as default evil or default good"?

To draw a contrast, I personally think everyone is good by default. Everyone, be in the middle east, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Chinese, everyone acts in a way that they see themselves as good, trying to do good. So to me, this defaults everyone to good, even if misguided.
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Re: Are people inherently evil?

Postby jimwalton » Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:33 pm

The Bible teaches that people are born separated from God. That's what it means when it says they are born with a sinful nature. Their nature is such that don't seek God, and don't have the benefit of God's presence in them. As a result of that, they are naturally oriented to self, pride comes easy, as well as anger, envy, jealousy, deceit, and other things. "Evil" is a loaded word that makes it sound as if all humans are monsters. We're not all monsters, but I would say we all know the presence of an "animal" inside of us, and the right (or wrong) set of circumstances is all it would take to bring that out to the surface in most people. But the fact that it's in there is what the Bible means when it says, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure" (Jer. 17.9).

Is everyone good by default? Is there anyone who has never told a lie, never been inappropriately angry, never felt self-centered pride, never been greedy, never rebelled against proper authority? If not, then how can everyone (or anyone for that matter) be good by default?
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Re: Are people inherently evil?

Postby Blue Pig » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:26 pm

Good is a loaded term as much as evil is. I don't consider a lie to be evil, until it is done for reasons which by enable evil. If I lie to a dying person saying that they don't have cancer even though they do, knowing that they will die before the cancer gets them, does that make me evil?

Even being angry. These are human emotions, so I don't consider them bad. They are good actually, they express the anger and frustration we are feeling.

To me though, people act in a manner that they see themselves as good people. They are trying to do the right thing as they see the world. If you could change how they see the world, they would instantly change and act different, but they would still be acting in a manner that is good to them.

Can someone who has accepted God, lived by his commandments for years NOT act evil? Are they immune? Could a godly person use the word of God to do horrible things? If someone kills someone else, not out of rage, but out of calculation, is that less evil? If I kill someone in self defense / anger that they are attacking my wife, am I evil?

Anyway, I digress. So according to you, if I understand correctly, you do believe everyone is "not good", because at some point they got angry, or were greedy. Is that right?

And if so, how does that paint your interactions with strangers? Say an atheist stranger walks up to you in a parking lot (say they are wearing a pro-atheist shirt), before they say a word, do you suspect them of being bad?

Jesus got angry, threw tables over in the church, damaged property, and most likely caused the money changers to lose money (others picking up the coins). I don't think Jesus ever repaid them for their loss or damage to property. So he acted in anger, he rebelled against authority... under your conditions, it sounds like Jesus would be considered evil.
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Re: Are people inherently evil?

Postby jimwalton » Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:39 am

I agree that "good" and "evil" are terms that exist on the same plane. I never contended that "evil" was a loaded word and "good" wasn't. I don't consider a lie to be evil either. Lies are generally wrong to tell, though in some very limited instances (as perhaps the one you mentioned, as well as the protection of Jews in people's homes during WWII, possibly an interrogator using a lie to garner a confession that will protect many lives, etc.). Even being angry is not necessarily evil. The Bible (Ephesians 4.26) tells us that sometimes it's OK to be angry, as long as we don't cross into sin with it (which is easy to do).

You say that "people act in a manner that they see themselves as good people." I sort of agree. I see people acting in a manner that they use to protect themselves and/or to advance themselves. They may cheat on a test (not considering themselves a good person when they do it), but excusing it on the basis of "everybody does it" or "I need to get a good grade." Although they would also probably say they are good people (though not necessarily that their cheating was a good thing). They are sometimes trying to do the right thing, but at other times just trying to make a good life for themselves and doing what they need to do to accomplish that end, even if it involves some shady behavior.

> Can someone who has accepted God, lived by his commandments for years NOT act evil?

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean they're immune. Evil not only lurks around every corner and keeps trying to drag us into it, it also haunts us from the inside (in my opinion). As I said, given the right circumstances (oh, watch any dystopic movie about the apocalypse), and we all seem to understand that people will turn into animals given the right panic mode at work.

> Could a godly person use the word of God to do horrible things?

Well, that's a trick question. If they're REALLY godly they won't. But a lot of people who pretend to be godly but are hypocrites do indeed use the word of God to do horrible things. Unfortunately, the Word of God has been abused through the ages as pretend godly people have used it to justify their own evil ends.

> If someone kills someone else, not out of rage, but out of calculation, is that less evil?

No, killing out of calculation is generally more evil, but killing out of rage is evil too. Another trick question. But killing in self-defense is not evil (Ex. 22.2-3).

> if I understand correctly, you do believe everyone is "not good"

People learn to be good, and we are socialized to be good, but we all have things in us that aren't good, so I wouldn't agree that "good" is the default. I know B.F. Skinner taught that we were born with a blank slate, and both good and evil are learned, but I don't agree with him. People can be startlingly good, and also staggeringly cruel. I'm of the opinion (based on observations) that there's enough cheating, lying, killing, anger, pride, and greed in the world that I can't subscribe to the tenet that good is the default.

> And if so, how does that paint your interactions with strangers? Say an atheist stranger walks up to you in a parking lot (say they are wearing a pro-atheist shirt), before they say a word, do you suspect them of being bad?

Not at all. I suspect them of having a world-view completely different from my own, having come to opposite conclusions based on the same evidence. One's theology doesn't necessarily dictate one's behavior (though it should). Too many Christians are hypocritical and live lives that Christ would never approve of, and many atheists live lives based on Christian principles inconsistent with their naturalistic humanism. So I don't assume they're bad. Everybody has good and bad in them. Therefore we're not inherently good, but we are all born inherently separated from God.

> Jesus overturning the tables.

No, anger isn't always bad. If ISIS is chopping off the heads of journalists, I consider that to be evil, and it makes me angry. And I think my anger is justified. If a friend of mine tells me they were sexually abused as a child by their father, that makes me really angry. When Jesus overturned their tables, he was offended at the mockery they were making of God. His action was one of prophetic symbolism, working against what had become an accepted form of blasphemy. Since Jesus considered that there is no such thing as "accepted blasphemy," he got angry, and I think his anger was justified, not evil.


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